FalconFN Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Sorry mate I thought you were commenting on my comment. I take all posts with a pinch of salt,it is only the Internet,and you are right most threads end up the same way,but that is the nature of the beast on forums. And this thread was over long ago,if you look back all that has been said the last couple of days was said when the thread was started,and me and j couldn't agree then,it was only ever going to be a bun fight,and I am surprised it has lasted this long. You would be surprised what some people will say in pm not so much on here but on some other forums it gets quite entertaining. It's all a laugh,I appreciate the big hug( people are going to start talking) so man up you whimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 My money is on school teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) As the Welsh dictatorship has voted in favor of stealing from their defenseless citizens I dont think their is much point in this going on now , but it has been most entertaining . They haven't voted to steal anything. They have introduced a legal presumption that you consent to donating your organs. That is not the same as a legal requirement to donate your organs or a right for someone to take them under all and any circumstances. If you do not consent then you tell them that and they won't/can't take them. J. Edited July 4, 2013 by JonathanL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Since I really cannot be bothered to wade through the whole thread, I will ask what would happen in the scenario of a recently deceased soul laid on the Welsh slab and having their organs removed as per the implied consent law only to find the relatives turn up and it transpires the deceased is in fact an Englishman/woman who did not want to donate their organs and was merely visiting the area on business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 They haven't voted to steal anything. They have introduced a legal presumption that you consent to donating your organs. That is not the same as a legal requirement to donate your organs or a right for someone to take them. If you do not consent then you tell them that and they won't/can't take them. J. No mate its stealing from the dead ! & what if some one is unfortunate to say get killed in a car crash in Wales & turns out too be a prime cadaver ? will they be quickly stripped of any usable parts while the corpse is still nice & fresh with out their loved ones & families even being told & what if the dead person turns out not to be welsh ? & some one who lives in say Scotland ? . Will the families of the deceased be informed ? will the checks be made ? & when a cock up is made ( it will ) who will take the blame ? & can they be sued by the victims families ? , it will be the same old story " no one will take the blame ". Its STEALING FROM THE DEAD ! which ever way you look at it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Another point is will the spare parts taken from corpses in Wales be used only for people in Wales or will they be traded across the border ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Some good info here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-23127751 You must be deemed to be ordinarily resident for 12 months. I think they have to ID you in all circumstances before they harvest organs anyhow. Generally speaking, only organs from brain dead people on life support are harvestable anyhow - so they will have time to know who you are and speak to family etc. The only difference now is that they presume you have consented unless you can prove otherwise. Personally I would opt out - for no other reason that I object to some aspects of how organ donation works, and since I didn't get a vote on it, this is my only means of protest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Another point is will the spare parts taken from corpses in Wales be used only for people in Wales or will they be traded across the border ?. They can go anywhere in the UK. This is one of my objections. If I had a son or cousin or other genetically connected person who needed my organs, and they became available - they would not get first dibs on my organs. They go to the next person on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Another point is will the spare parts taken from corpses in Wales be used only for people in Wales or will they be traded across the border ?.Does that matter? Is a Welsh kidney different from an English or Scottish one? As for 'stealing' parts from non Welsh, that wouldn't happen as the deceased, no matter who they are, will still need to be identified and the register checked before any organs could be taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 They can go anywhere in the UK. This is one of my objections. If I had a son or cousin or other genetically connected person who needed my organs, and they became available - they would not get first dibs on my organs. They go to the next person on the list. Surely that is the case now and this change would have no effect on who the recipient is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Does that matter? Is a Welsh kidney different from an English or Scottish one? As for 'stealing' parts from non Welsh, that wouldn't happen as the deceased, no matter who they are, will still need to be identified and the register checked before any organs could be taken. A Scottish liver is probably a tad different from an English or Welsh one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 my view is take the whole lot as I dont care....I use to CARRY a card but dont anymore due to not having a wallet now... and JonathanL always makes valid points on these arguements....dont know why people have to jump down his throat when they dont agree...he always posts facts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Another point is will the spare parts taken from corpses in Wales be used only for people in Wales or will they be traded across the border ?. dangerous ground this, some ethnic and religious groups have an incredibly low take up of being on the donor register - would this mean anyone from one of these groups needing an organ wouldnt get one? with the proposed 'opt out; system - this would bring these groups into the spotlight like never before, and as mercenary as it sounds i don think it would be reasonable to extend the availibility to such groups if they wholesale dont contribute. me personally - i'm on the register, quite frankly once im dead, i will have no concern what happens to my body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) Not too long ago I read of & latter saw a documentary about the unexplained happenings or side effects if you like which have been happening to some 35% or so cases to recipients of transplanted organs , anyone else see it ?. It turns out that for some unknown reason people who have received donated organs have strangely been getting memories & skills from the person who they received the organ from ! , weird or what ?? . For instance one person in this documentary suddenly became musical & even started reading music & it turned out that was one of the skills the late donor had & in another case some one suddenly became brilliant at mathematics for the same reason , spooky ! . When I am gone I want all parts of me gone & no one has the right to steal from my corpse without asking me or my nearest & that is that ! weather I sign or not . More to life than just death & more to death than just dying I think & after all thats my right too . Edited July 4, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Since I really cannot be bothered to wade through the whole thread, I will ask what would happen in the scenario of a recently deceased soul laid on the Welsh slab and having their organs removed as per the implied consent law only to find the relatives turn up and it transpires the deceased is in fact an Englishman/woman who did not want to donate their organs and was merely visiting the area on business. It only applies to people who have been resident in Wales for the past 12 months. Students and other people there temporarily, even though they may have been there for more than 12 months, are outside the scheme also. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 No mate its stealing from the dead ! & what if some one is unfortunate to say get killed in a car crash in Wales & turns out too be a prime cadaver ? will they be quickly stripped of any usable parts while the corpse is still nice & fresh with out their loved ones & families even being told & what if the dead person turns out not to be welsh ? & some one who lives in say Scotland ? . Will the families of the deceased be informed ? will the checks be made ? & when a cock up is made ( it will ) who will take the blame ? & can they be sued by the victims families ? , it will be the same old story " no one will take the blame ". Its STEALING FROM THE DEAD ! which ever way you look at it . As my post above, if you haven't lived in Wales for the12 months prior then implied consent doesn't apply to you. It is not stealing anything from anyone. It is merely an assumption that you consent, which seems entirely reasonable. If you don't consent then let them know. No one is suggesting that a cock up cannot be made and that could happen with the current system. What's the worst that could happen with this system though? A person who opted out gets their organs shoved into someone else - hardly too drastic. I mean, look at medical mistakes in general; if doctors make a mistake someone might die, if they make a mistake about this them the most likely outcome is that someone lives. People are way too protective about their bodies when they die. It makes very little difference when all said and done. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 A Scottish liver is probably a tad different from an English or Welsh one. Good point, Buckfast is actually liver tonic so our brothers in the far-north will all have healthy, rosie livers to go with their strong hearts gained by eating stout manly food like offal and deep fried Nutella nuggets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Not too long ago I read of & latter saw a documentary about the unexplained happenings or side effects if you like which have been happening to some 35% or so cases to recipients of transplanted organs , anyone else see it ?. It turns out that for some unknown reason people who have received donated organs have strangely been getting memories & skills from the person who they received the organ from ! , weird or what ?? . For instance one person in this documentary suddenly became musical & even started reading music & it turned out that was one of the skills the late donor had & in another case some one suddenly became brilliant at mathematics for the same reason , spooky ! . When I am gone I want all parts of me gone & no one has the right to steal from my corpse without asking me or my nearest & that is that ! weather I sign or not . More to life than just death & more to death than just dying I think & after all thats my right too . I think you'll find that will be a psychological reaction rather than physiological. I imagine for some people it is quite traumatic to have another humans heart, with all the associated connotations of love and soul etc, beating inside your body so it is unsurprising that people believe that they have changed after an operation. I mean, would be comfortable with, say, Jimmy Savill's heart? I'm a logical and pragmatic person but I would still prefer a different one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 As my post above, if you haven't lived in Wales for the12 months prior then implied consent doesn't apply to you. It is not stealing anything from anyone. It is merely an assumption that you consent, which seems entirely reasonable. If you don't consent then let them know. No one is suggesting that a cock up cannot be made and that could happen with the current system. What's the worst that could happen with this system though? A person who opted out gets their organs shoved into someone else - hardly too drastic. I mean, look at medical mistakes in general; if doctors make a mistake someone might die, if they make a mistake about this them the most likely outcome is that someone lives. People are way too protective about their bodies when they die. It makes very little difference when all said and done. J. If you loose your wallet full of cash & I find it then I will presume you don't need ? so if I pick it up go down the pub with it you wont mind will you ? well its not stealing is it or is it ?. Cock ups are always made & when dose it may bring a lot of hurt to some one who has had there loved one cut up for spare parts with out their consent . I think you'll find that will be a psychological reaction rather than physiological. I imagine for some people it is quite traumatic to have another humans heart, with all the associated connotations of love and soul etc, beating inside your body so it is unsurprising that people believe that they have changed after an operation. I mean, would be comfortable with, say, Jimmy Savill's heart? I'm a logical and pragmatic person but I would still prefer a different one. You beat me too it ! I was going to mention some thing along those lines . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 At what point are the organs screened for disease? Bit pointless performing hours of expensive, resource sapping surgery if the NHS are going to give all organ recipients aids etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 At what point are the organs screened for disease? Bit pointless performing hours of expensive, resource sapping surgery if the NHS are going to give all organ recipients aids etc. All donors are screened for all the things you can think of before organs are harvested, and also the recipient is checked for compatibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) At what point are the organs screened for disease? Bit pointless performing hours of expensive, resource sapping surgery if the NHS are going to give all organ recipients aids etc. Maybe they should check the donors past to see if he has had any criminal or pervert convictions ! well who knows the habit might be passed on Edited July 4, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 I accept that when someone dies, it should not really matter to them what happens to their organs. They should be going to a good cause. The opt-out scheme has some merit, but what happens if they don't receive your opt-out notification or they make a computer cock-up. Anyone who says that this can't or won't happen should be banned from voting and from posting on a forum. Put yourself in the place of a relative - you go to see the person who has died to find that many parts have been removed, without permission. Leaving aside the upset, the potential for litigation is immense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Surely that is the case now and this change would have no effect on who the recipient is? Yes, nothing has changed - and I still object to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 What if KW needed an urgent organ transplant and unwittingly got one from Mungler who had expired earlier that day in a freak onanism accident whilst visiting the herts boys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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