Evolution/natural selection. Yes or no?

[paulos]

No, I believe some of it is analogy, however the theology behind it underpins later theology and does not contradict it.

How about creation? If you don't believe it literally, then at what stage in the universe's history did God start taking an interest in human affairs?

[henry d]

Before it even started.

 

**EDIT** Sorry it would have been a bit crass to leave it there. Things like the seven days are a problem, is it seven days or were there seven ages of indeterminate length? Ancient Hebrew words are not easily translated, not a cop out, and some had indeterminate or multiple meanings.

Edited March 18, 2013 by henry d

[gazzthompson]

What's the criterian for going to hell henry d, In your particular denomination.

[henry d]

I do not have a denomination other than Christian, but in a nutshell...

 

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

John 3:16

[Vipa]

No, cf. Psalm 14:1 - ‘There is no God.’ , it is preceded by "The fool says in his heart," so some of the bible, if taken out of context are incorrect, the bible needs to be read with this in mind.

Another psalm states "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge."

They do not literally do this, does that make it untrue? No, not at all.

 

 

 

That is what hell is.

 

I am trying to keep away from this but I gotta pull you up on this Henry...

 

you are just manipulating sentences to 'prove' your point... You say parts of the bible cannot be true because it says, (your e.g.) ‘There is no God.’ , it is preceded by "The fool says in his heart," ... well hang on a minute... what it says is "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." that is a comma after heart, not a full stop! That is purely and simply a derogatory snipe at the infidels... it is not meant to be taken literally and is not written as such... you are moving things around to try to get a point across which, quite obviously is not there "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge." Let me translate.... There must be a god, how otherwise how could the heavens (space, solar system etc.. to you and I) in all their beauty exist. Their mere existence proves just how clever god is. The beauty of the sky and the clouds in the daytime prove he must exist and just prove how clever he is... The fact that this beauty can be seen every day and every night just reinforces how absolutely super duper he really is!"

 

The latter statement was never meant to be literal it was an all out 'gush' at god, The first one you changed one round to make it look like you were right! Sorry mate but the parts you are purporting to believe literally aren't meant to be taken literally anyway!!!!

 

Whats that saying? "Grammar.... the difference between feeling your nuts and feeling you're nuts!"

 

The 'faithful' and politicians have one thing in common, they cannot answer a simple question with a simple answer, they always either answer it with a question or deflect and skew things so it sounds like an answer but is in fact a diversion so that they can make a statement rather than give an answer.... so... perhaps we need to be a little more specific...

 

Henry, do you

 

1) believe that god created the Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th (Just read your post above.. so. days, ages, great when you can blame the translation isn't it!)

2) do you believe that Adam and Eve were real people, actually existed in the garden of Eden and were cast out after disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit?

3) do you believe that Noah did actually build his ark and populated it with 2 of every species on the planet whilst a great flood came and wiped out everything else? Do you also realise just how large that vessel would need to be to accommodate them all, let alone to store all the food necessary!

and finally

4) do you believe that Samson and Delilah were real people and that Samson's strength was all stored in his hair?

 

Yes or no answers please..

Edited March 18, 2013 by Vipa

[henry d]

The problem is, as I was pointing out, people will and have used bad arguments to dismiss christianity using the bible, I was merely pointing this out, sorry for the confusion.

 

I don`t think I should I answer things out of context, and that would also drag us way off topic? If you want to know what I believe put up a thread on the Apostles` creed and I`ll answer those specifics there.

[gazzthompson]

I do not have a denomination other than Christian, but in a nutshell...

 

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

John 3:16

 

So it would seem, as i said, "Believe in me or burn in hell"

 

?

[henry d]

So it would seem, as i said, "Believe in me or burn in hell"

 

?

...or just oblivion?

[gazzthompson]

Eitherway, Its a concept I can't accept. Even if i could, I would rather not be with such an egotistical cruel being. I also don't see how it relates to most Religious peoples view of their "Kind loving god".

Edited March 18, 2013 by gazzthompson

[Vipa]

The problem is, as I was pointing out, people will and have used bad arguments to dismiss christianity using the bible, I was merely pointing this out, sorry for the confusion.

 

I don`t think I should I answer things out of context, and that would also drag us way off topic? If you want to know what I believe put up a thread on the Apostles` creed and I`ll answer those specifics there.

 

Why not just answer them here Henry... 4 VERY simple questions requiring a VERY simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.. I deliberately kept them basic.. your answers could not be taken out of context

[FalconFN]

Some animals went on the ark in 7s and I think some as 3s. That's one big ark.

 

The trouble is that you can't argue against faith because by its nature faith doesn't need proof, otherwise its not faith but science. There has been 2 thousand years of theologians finding solutions to tricky problems so it is unlikely that such things as logic or proof will make much difference.

Edited March 18, 2013 by FalconFN

[henry d]

Why not just answer them here Henry... 4 VERY simple questions requiring a VERY simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.. I deliberately kept them basic.. your answers could not be taken out of context

 

By their very nature of being out of context and yes or no questions you are limiting me, how can you not understand that?

 

Some animals went on the ark in 7s and I think some as 3s. That's one big ark.

 

The trouble is that you can't argue against faith because by its nature faith doesn't need proof, otherwise its not faith but science. There has been 2 thousand years of theologians finding solutions to tricky problems so it is unlikely that such things as logic or proof will make much difference.

 

Theology has its roots in logic.

[overandunder2012]

I do not have a denomination other than Christian, but in a nutshell...

 

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

John 3:16

what if you go to the wrong church and pick the wrong god would be a real bumber to live a good life prey every day and you die and damn it you got it wrong gods a catholic or a muslim but hey ho your born in wrong country everyones a budist bad luck off to hell you go with the rest of the people who where unlucky in the god lotto , i say this in jest but it is a point seems a bit of a gamble getting it right when you chose your religion as the result isnt known until you peg it

Edited March 18, 2013 by overandunder2012

[henry d]

Look up Pascal`s wager.

 

 

Anyway, about evolution...or would anyone else want a kick at me?

[overandunder2012]

sorry mate wasnt having a kick just putting the point there are many religions yet many claim to be the true god they cant all be

[Kes]

I thought Vipa's question about believing the literal truth about Adam and Eve etc was about evolution. But hey we can all be wrong.

 

No-one wants to say it Henry but your belief leaves many cold as does your unwillingness to answer directly - yes or no !

 

I suggest your are setting yourself up for kicking by quoting Psalms, suggesting your beliefs relate more closely to the Apostles Creed etc.

 

Perhaps it would be best if we stuck to discussing the shooting of pigeons and left the religeous details to more religeous fora where like-minded people can relate to stuff like the Apostles Creed.

 

Any further discussion of religeon or religeously related topics and I am out - sorry Henry no more 'fun' from me.

[FalconFN]

Look up Pascal`s wager.

 

 

Anyway, about evolution...or would anyone else want a kick at me?

I don't want to kick you or anyone, you seem like a decent bloke and the fact that you are happy and sure in your beliefs is great. I find faith fascinating, as well as a little bizarre, and as I can't suspend my disbelief enough to believe in any of the world religions I find it interesting to hear the point of view of a 'believer' even if it sounds totally bonkers to me.

 

Evolution through the process of natural selection is, to me, a totally rational, believable, logical and elegant way to explain our presence on this rocky sphere, and it does it without the need to take God(s) out of the picture.

[henry d]

...Evolution through the process of natural selection is, to me, a totally rational, believable, logical and elegant way to explain our presence on this rocky sphere, and it does it without the need to take God(s) out of the picture.

 

Exactly, and I would also say creation too (cosmic sense).

[evo]

The problem is, as I was pointing out, people will and have used bad arguments to dismiss christianity using the bible, I was merely pointing this out, sorry for the confusion.

 

I don`t think I should I answer things out of context, and that would also drag us way off topic? If you want to know what I believe put up a thread on the Apostles` creed and I`ll answer those specifics there.

The problem is, as I was pointing out, people will and have used bad arguments to dismiss christianity using the bible, I was merely pointing this out, sorry for the confusion.

 

I don`t think I should I answer things out of context, and that would also drag us way off topic? If you want to know what I believe put up a thread on the Apostles` creed and I`ll answer those specifics there.

 

henry your at it again,sqirming out of answering a simple question and saying you will answer it in another thread,,

 

since you sent me a personal message, because you did not want to answer a question i had asked on this public forum, i decided to sit back and just watch what you were doing ?

 

1,, you will not answer a question directed towards the topic or yourself when feeling unsure of the answer.

 

2,,when unsure of an answer your reply is always " if you want me to answer it start another topic,even then you dont answer it

 

3,, to me you are a Bible basher that thinks only what YOU and whatever YOU think is right ,,IS RIGHT

 

and last but not least i find you an intelligent person who has got to an age in life where he is scared of dying and looking for comfort, if you can get this by trying to preach and believe all this bull in the book you are reading then crack on my friend but dont think for one minute there is an eternal life,because there is not,once dead your dead your soul the lot (by the way soul is a load of bull also its just another word used to get out of Death,

 

you say you are a christian , so what faith as you call it are you, why do all these faiths have different outcomes , why does the bible get preached meaning different things, why does anyone who believes in the bible try to preach it all the time, well i can give you the answer to all those questions and the answer is ,,,,you have been brainwashed into believing that this book you read is the truth and that GOD whoever that or it may be created it,,

 

Enjoy the rest of your time on this planet because one thing is for sure, you wont be going anywhere else once you leave it all the best EVO

[henry d]

henry your at it again,sqirming out of answering a simple question and saying you will answer it in another thread,,

 

since you sent me a personal message, because you did not want to answer a question i had asked on this public forum...

 

As you are well aware, I did not answer as another member had recently buried his mother and I thought it would be insensitive to answer and risk upsetting him unnecessarily and I had sent him a PM to ask if he wanted me to get the mods to remove the thread.

 

Like I said, if you want to ask something that is off thread then ask by PM or start another topic as not going off topic is part of the rules you signed up for as part of your membership here.

[Mk1 Man]

henry your at it again,sqirming out of answering a simple question and saying you will answer it in another thread,,

 

since you sent me a personal message, because you did not want to answer a question i had asked on this public forum, i decided to sit back and just watch what you were doing ?

 

1,, you will not answer a question directed towards the topic or yourself when feeling unsure of the answer.

 

2,,when unsure of an answer your reply is always " if you want me to answer it start another topic,even then you dont answer it

 

3,, to me you are a Bible basher that thinks only what YOU and whatever YOU think is right ,,IS RIGHT

 

and last but not least i find you an intelligent person who has got to an age in life where he is scared of dying and looking for comfort, if you can get this by trying to preach and believe all this bull in the book you are reading then crack on my friend but dont think for one minute there is an eternal life,because there is not,once dead your dead your soul the lot (by the way soul is a load of bull also its just another word used to get out of Death,

 

you say you are a christian , so what faith as you call it are you, why do all these faiths have different outcomes , why does the bible get preached meaning different things, why does anyone who believes in the bible try to preach it all the time, well i can give you the answer to all those questions and the answer is ,,,,you have been brainwashed into believing that this book you read is the truth and that GOD whoever that or it may be created it,,

 

Enjoy the rest of your time on this planet because one thing is for sure, you wont be going anywhere else once you leave it all the best EVO

 

 

Amen to that.

[cockercas]

Comon lads. Its just turned into henry burning thread.

I quite admire his dedecation to his faith. You guys have tride knocking him and triping him up but he has still replyd to your posts be that an answer or not and i think its getting abit pointless now.

Fair play henry, i wish i had the faith you do but ive never found anything to make me belive.

Then again ive never looked.

 

But (and i arnt botherd about an answer) why if god created the world, why is he letting us destroy it?.

Edited March 19, 2013 by cockercas

[Cranfield]

Doesn't anyone realise yet that arguing religion and other obtuse subjects with henryd is like a stay at the Hotel California ?

 

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave".

 

[henry d]

Keep it on topic or give yourself a warning

[overandunder2012]

not a problem i have no intention to up set henry or anyone else on this subject its just a discusion to me