cf

[benn]

hello all

 

i been looking into getting a cf for rabbits,foxes,corvids,i have got a hmr which im happy with when shooting up to 150 on rabbits etc and under 100 on fox,i like the flat trajectory of the hmr,just wondering any thaughts on which caliber to go for?i like the sound of .204 or .17 remington any body use one?

 

thanks benn

[steve_b_wales]

A centrefire on rabbits would be too much, if you wanted to eat any of it afterwards. For long range shooting at them, a .22-250 would be an excellent choice. It has plenty of power to dispatch foxes at 300+ yards and is very flat shooting. That's not to say that other calibers like .222 /.223 would'nt work.

There's a Winchester .17 Super Magnum caliber due on our shores sometime this year, and, looking/reading at the results, this could well be the one you are looking for, I will more than likely buy this caliber early next year,

[varminter pb]

Post #2 isn't quite true. I've had many rabbits with the .223 sub 100 yards, i've cleanly taken a couple of heads off . At night time with the N550 mounted I've also head shot rabbits art 200 plus yards, again all perfectly head shot, but then I'm using my trusty and accurate Tikka T3. The rabbits were probably more practical to clean up than the .17HMR and accuracy issues at 100 yards in mild winds, etc.

[kent]

I use the .22 Hornet with factory RWS 46grn bullets traveling at 2550fps it shoots just great on Rabbits and is about the perfect Hare rifle. Rabbits I have only head shot and never wasted one, Hares I have head neck shot at short range and longer ranges at 150 or so its comparible to chest shooting Roe with a 100grn bullet when you hit them in the boiler room. My hand loads run a Seirra 45grn at 2900 fps and this is about the max you can put into a rabbit head shot even shot frontal into the forehead I have yet to damage the edible bits- but I have turned a few heads inside out. I have once even wounded a Bunny removing the lower pert oh its head / jaw when I failed to hold high for a short range squatter in the lamp, it didn't go anywhere and was quickly dispatched by hand- I feel it would have been a runner or active jumper with the HMR but the hornet tagged it hard enough that it just stayed pinned (many might have thought it stone dead, though I could tell by the eye when I picked it).

IMO Hornet is ideal but you can achieve the same energy with reduced level hand loads in a .222 or .223. The full power Hornet 45 grn hand load gives around 700 ft lb at the muzzle so anything up to that should be fine. I have tried clipping the heads etc with deer class cf rifles - it just doesn't work, any hit can turn them to mush. Many have claimed otherwise but I once spent the morning shooting a few dozen and non were saveable for the table

Compared directly to the HMR you get half the windages or better, less drop and something that's fully fox capable and easy to moderate. .20 ruger might be pushing those energy levels a little bit too far but I imagine a .17 Rem might be appropriate with the correct hand load.

There is about a dozen other experienced .22 Hornet guys on here who might advise you further, maybe someone local to you might demonstrate with an invite to your ground?

If you taking a hundred shots a visit and go regular a c/f will be expensive to feed and time consuming to load for. yet 50 shots a visit once a fortnight aint much hassle

Edited March 18, 2013 by kent

[wymberley]

What, realistically speaking, is going to be your max' range for fox?

[benn]

thanks for all the replys,my max range for fox is going be around 200-250 max,i have thaught about hornet whats the max range on foxes for the hornet?hearing the comments i leanning towards keeping the hmr for rabbits and get cf for purley foxes and long range corvids?i would in the future want a calibre for deer so is there a well suited calibre for deer, fox and long range corvids?bearing in mind this will be my first cf?

[kent]

thanks for all the replys,my max range for fox is going be around 200-250 max,i have thaught about hornet whats the max range on foxes for the hornet?hearing the comments i leanning towards keeping the hmr for rabbits and get cf for purley foxes and long range corvids?i would in the future want a calibre for deer so is there a well suited calibre for deer, fox and long range corvids?bearing in mind this will be my first cf?

.223 rem std for Roe in Scotland, CWD and Munties England (it starts at .222 rem and a 50grn bullet balistically). After that its .243 Win upwards for all deer. Ask for a .243 now as a first cf for vermin without deer permisions in place and your likely to get a big fat no from most FEO's. The Hornet is a way better bunny gun than the HMR, I should not keep both. Get a .22 lr for the main bunny job and then step right up to a small CF as the only downside is hand loading or higher ammo bills- if you have so many rabbits you need to be out a lot and fire a lot of rounds just get closer and use the cheaper and quieter LR to my mind. The .22 Hornet packs more Punch at 200 yds than most WMR ammo does at minimum fox ranges, its capable to 250 but you need to be able to dope the wind and trajectory. For example my hornet is zeroed at 130 and will stay within a rabbits head on trajectory to 160 yds at 200 yds its 2 MOA low (4") full value 10mph wind at 200 is 5.6 MOA which equates to about a foot - doable but only if you have the experience and skill level to call the shot and take it 250 takes a good day and a good shot +4.1 Moa Drop and 7.75Moa FV 10mph yep that's 10" low and 19" of wind mis judge the wind by a half value and your going to get a 10" or so error. To sum up keep it under 160 yds till you have the trigger time in but its twice as good and then some over a HMR

[wymberley]

thanks for all the replys,my max range for fox is going be around 200-250 max,i have thaught about hornet whats the max range on foxes for the hornet?hearing the comments i leanning towards keeping the hmr for rabbits and get cf for purley foxes and long range corvids?i would in the future want a calibre for deer so is there a well suited calibre for deer, fox and long range corvids?bearing in mind this will be my first cf?

 

When I saw the 250 max I started to think 222 until you then mentioned the future and deer. At this point Kent's post makes perfect sense. For a first CF, the 22 Hornet is ideal (as would be the 222 if you're talking deer as being a long way into the future) and is more likely to be approved than a bigger brute. Don't run until you can walk is, as ever, good advice. As you will probably not shoot it out in your lifetime, get a keeper. Then, when you're ready, this will fit nicely between the HMR (or LR) and, say, a 243 for the deer which is also fine for any fox which may push the Hornet beyond its limits.

[kent]

When I saw the 250 max I started to think 222 until you then mentioned the future and deer. At this point Kent's post makes perfect sense. For a first CF, the 22 Hornet is ideal (as would be the 222 if you're talking deer as being a long way into the future) and is more likely to be approved than a bigger brute. Don't run until you can walk is, as ever, good advice. As you will probably not shoot it out in your lifetime, get a keeper. Then, when you're ready, this will fit nicely between the HMR (or LR) and, say, a 243 for the deer which is also fine for any fox which may push the Hornet beyond its limits.

Do you think there is any point in owning an LR + HMR + Hornet? personally I don't the HMR becomes redundant in that line up. I should go LR + Hornet and then when the Deer need is there and the skill is gained also a need for longer range fox control comes in then add a .243 win to the line up. I agree with the .222 being a great choice and it would be my own personal choice over a .223 rem but the latter is just a better novice choice as its just a touch more versatile and obtainable these days. In deed the triple 2 was a close choice thing when I put in for the .22 Hornet, the only factor was the need to consider a reduced power load for edible small game and the closer it came to the existing .243 win at full power (as regards actual use not ft/lb). I was initially forced to sell the HMR by firearms but they did me a great favour because like I say the Hornet makes it redundant. The full story was I had 7 rifles listed for vermin at that time, they actually wanted me to loose either the LR or the HMR with a preference to the LR but that was never going to happen. Reduced .222 and .223 loads are widely published for use on small edibles and Turkey but then you get two zeros, two dopes and burn twice the powder which costs more and makes the round twice as hard to moderate

[wymberley]

Do you think there is any point in owning an LR + HMR + Hornet? personally I don't the HMR becomes redundant in that line up. I should go LR + Hornet and then when the Deer need is there and the skill is gained also a need for longer range fox control comes in then add a .243 win to the line up. I agree with the .222 being a great choice and it would be my own personal choice over a .223 rem but the latter is just a better novice choice as its just a touch more versatile and obtainable these days. In deed the triple 2 was a close choice thing when I put in for the .22 Hornet, the only factor was the need to consider a reduced power load for edible small game and the closer it came to the existing .243 win at full power (as regards actual use not ft/lb). I was initially forced to sell the HMR by firearms but they did me a great favour because like I say the Hornet makes it redundant. The full story was I had 7 rifles listed for vermin at that time, they actually wanted me to loose either the LR or the HMR with a preference to the LR but that was never going to happen. Reduced .222 and .223 loads are widely published for use on small edibles and Turkey but then you get two zeros, two dopes and burn twice the powder which costs more and makes the round twice as hard to moderate

 

No.

 

The OP already has an HMR.

 

I added the option - 'or' means one or the other, not both - of the other possibility for anyone who might be thinking along similar lines.

 

I'm not going to suggest for one minute that the OP chucks his HMR in the bin and goes down the LR-22Hornet- 243 route just because I (we - that's not an, 'or', but an, 'and') think it would be a good idea!

[kent]

 

 

No.

 

The OP already has an HMR.

 

I added the option - 'or' means one or the other, not both - of the other possibility for anyone who might be thinking along similar lines.

 

I'm not going to suggest for one minute that the OP chucks his HMR in the bin and goes down the LR-22Hornet- 243 route just because I (we - that's not an, 'or', but an, 'and') think it would be a good idea!

if licencing was different I might have a lot more guns and a lot smaller bank account, doubt I should get to shoot more though. I don't know why perhaps it maturity setting in (my wife might disagree) but I tend to keep my cars now and keep guns that suit and not look for a full gunroom. Now down to 3 FAC rifles and very happy, not long back it was looking like a gun shop here. A .22 LR, .22 Hornet and .243" will do everything in the UK stopping short of Boar on safety grounds. There is nothing a HMR can do a .22 Hornet cannot unless you talk of factory ammo costs or time in the loading room- the reverse aint true I have never been confident in a HMR v Fox situation and you sure cannot plug 200 yd Crows too easy with them

[Dekers]

if licencing was different I might have a lot more guns and a lot smaller bank account, doubt I should get to shoot more though. I don't know why perhaps it maturity setting in (my wife might disagree) but I tend to keep my cars now and keep guns that suit and not look for a full gunroom. Now down to 3 FAC rifles and very happy, not long back it was looking like a gun shop here. A .22 LR, .22 Hornet and .243" will do everything in the UK stopping short of Boar on safety grounds. There is nothing a HMR can do a .22 Hornet cannot unless you talk of factory ammo costs or time in the loading room- the reverse aint true I have never been confident in a HMR v Fox situation and you sure cannot plug 200 yd Crows too easy with them

 

...and I suspect there is nothing a HMR or .22Hornet can do that a .243 can't do........ and so on and so on.

 

You may well be down to 3 FAC tools and that may well suit you, fine, it sure as heck would not suit all my work, and other peoples as well no doubt!

 

I'm not a collector and never have been, I have the tools I need to do the jobs I am called upon to do. When I don't find a need for any of my 8 FAC tools, Air rifles and assorted shotguns I will get rid as well.

[benn]

cheers all replys so the 22 hornet enough for foxes out to 250?im thinking keep the hmr just for rabbits as im comfortable with shooting them to 150 with hmr and if there further away i just get close as i feel comfortable to shoot them,it mainly cf for foxes and long range corvids,i think i will apply for a bigger deer calibre later if needsbe,so it cf that i dont have to worry about meat damage or price of ammo

what would you suggest .222 i havent really looked into this caliber.

[al4x]

Benn simple answer is if you want a center fire you need to know if deer are going to be on the menu and in which case what deer. Muntjac and CWD you can shoot with a .22 cf if these were all you wanted to shoot then personally I would go .223 or 22-250 both cracking foxing rounds. If larger deer then its .243 or larger and I'd stick with .243 if its for foxing as well as its an ideal foxing gun.

In answer to your hornet question its not a 250 yard fox gun it has its enthusiasts on here but if you keep your HMR there are far better choices as a long range vermin and fox gun either the two .22cf's or some of the 20 cal offerings are rather appealing. If you want a stepping stone then you'd not go far wrong with a .223 the ammo is available everywhere and cost isn't bad and you get the largest selection of guns.

[kent]

 

 

...and I suspect there is nothing a HMR or .22Hornet can do that a .243 can't do........ and so on and so on.

 

You may well be down to 3 FAC tools and that may well suit you, fine, it sure as heck would not suit all my work, and other peoples as well no doubt!

 

I'm not a collector and never have been, I have the tools I need to do the jobs I am called upon to do. When I don't find a need for any of my 8 FAC tools, Air rifles and assorted shotguns I will get rid as well.

 

Sorry, you simply cannot put many thousands of rounds down a .243, cannot moderate 4 times the powder choice as well and you cannot take rabbits for the pot with one, cannot feed one hand loads for similar to HMR factory costs LOL. Oh and you are 90% sure to be refused one for fox and vermin as a first CF application.

 

Dekers, you can do all the 22 mag and HMR jobs with a Hornet and a Hornet job IF you reload !. Although the first part of your post does seem very contradictory to the second. If you had but one rifle rather than several you can have better glass, better moderators and more room in the safe and less capital expenditure in your proffesion

[kent]

cheers all replys so the 22 hornet enough for foxes out to 250?im thinking keep the hmr just for rabbits as im comfortable with shooting them to 150 with hmr and if there further away i just get close as i feel comfortable to shoot them,it mainly cf for foxes and long range corvids,i think i will apply for a bigger deer calibre later if needsbe,so it cf that i dont have to worry about meat damage or price of ammo

what would you suggest .222 i havent really looked into this caliber.

The gun is 99% of shooters are not. The power is there for sure its capable of producing thee times the muzzle energy of a HMR and will hold onto that power better. If your deffo keeping the Hummer get a .222 or .223 forget the 22-250 you need to be a lot further out than 250 yds to see any advantage over the former two. I gave the basic dope for a 250yds shot with a hornet - its far from easy to take such a shot as regards getting the call correct, similar to shooting a HMR at 180 ish ?

[Essex Keeper]

I've got a .223 awesome tool on foxs rabbits etc would post pics but a tad bloody the rabbits no good to eat

[wymberley]

cheers all replys so the 22 hornet enough for foxes out to 250?im thinking keep the hmr just for rabbits as im comfortable with shooting them to 150 with hmr and if there further away i just get close as i feel comfortable to shoot them,it mainly cf for foxes and long range corvids,i think i will apply for a bigger deer calibre later if needsbe,so it cf that i dont have to worry about meat damage or price of ammo

what would you suggest .222 i havent really looked into this caliber.

 

A fox rifle can be defined as a rifle that's owner uses to shoot fox. By that same definition, a 250 yard fox rifle is a rifle that's owner uses to shoot fox at 250 yards.

 

Now, believe me, there's a damned sight fewer of those in the country that many would have you believe. Shooting at night, there's probably about 25% of that number previously indicated.

 

I don't know how you northerners get on with first CF applications, but as previously mentioned, you can help yourself by trying to get people to help you.

 

As a starting point, I'd have a look at seeing if that 250 yards is actually on the cards for you initially.

[kent]

I've got a .223 awesome tool on foxs rabbits etc would post pics but a tad bloody the rabbits no good to eat

Thank goodness someone is honest enough to say so, .223 can be used as a reduced loaded round but std energy .223 is just too much unless you get lucky. My 45 grn Hornet loads at 2900 fps are about the practical limit for head shot bunnies, if I was rarely shooting anything past 160 I should just stick to the normal stuff loaded like the factory fodder at around 2500-2600 with a 45 /46 grn

[Dekers]

Edited, see further below #22

Edited March 20, 2013 by Dekers

[al4x]

 

As a starting point, I'd have a look at seeing if that 250 yards is actually on the cards for you initially.

 

it all depends on the size of fields you have but as a guide a square 18 acre field is about 250 yards straight across, some times most of our shots are sub 100 yards usually in summer but come winter when you aren't driving on stubble then the ranges can creep up, my last one was about 220 and I have been further in the last few months as we have a number of 100 acre plus fields of direct drilled rape into stubble, thats not grown properly so the partridges and hares love it hence foxes being in the middle more often than not. If you can lamp from a vehicle you want something with some legs on it where you aren't dealing with large amounts of drop as you won't have the range finder out its down to your estimation. We also have a ***** problem and most are lamp shy so you rarely get much time and they rarely call properly which adds to the issue.

[Dekers]

if licencing was different I might have a lot more guns and a lot smaller bank account, doubt I should get to shoot more though. I don't know why perhaps it maturity setting in (my wife might disagree) but I tend to keep my cars now and keep guns that suit and not look for a full gunroom. Now down to 3 FAC rifles and very happy, not long back it was looking like a gun shop here. A .22 LR, .22 Hornet and .243" will do everything in the UK stopping short of Boar on safety grounds. There is nothing a HMR can do a .22 Hornet cannot unless you talk of factory ammo costs or time in the loading room- the reverse aint true I have never been confident in a HMR v Fox situation and you sure cannot plug 200 yd Crows too easy with them

...and I suspect there is nothing a HMR or .22Hornet can do that a .243 can't do........ and so on and so on.

 

You may well be down to 3 FAC tools and that may well suit you, fine, it sure as heck would not suit all my work, and other peoples as well no doubt!

 

I'm not a collector and never have been, I have the tools I need to do the jobs I am called upon to do. When I don't find a need for any of my 8 FAC tools, Air rifles and assorted shotguns I will get rid as well.

Sorry, you simply cannot put many thousands of rounds down a .243, cannot moderate 4 times the powder choice as well and you cannot take rabbits for the pot with one, cannot feed one hand loads for similar to HMR factory costs LOL. Oh and you are 90% sure to be refused one for fox and vermin as a first CF application.

 

Dekers, you can do all the 22 mag and HMR jobs with a Hornet and a Hornet job IF you reload !. Although the first part of your post does seem very contradictory to the second. If you had but one rifle rather than several you can have better glass, better moderators and more room in the safe and less capital expenditure in your proffesion

 

What has that got to do with your statement above highlighted?

 

and.......

 

Ok, thanks for the advice, I'll chuck away all my air rifles, rimfires and and other cf and just keep my .308, after all that can do everything all the others can, and when Sainsbury asked why they have a big hole in their wall after I shot a pigeon in the Deli area I'll tell them kent said I didn't need all my other rifles!!

 

The right tool for the job has NOTHING to do with the cost of the ammo!

 

You seem to want to keep bringing cost and quality of product into posts, ALL my guns, scopes, mods, mounts, slings, bipods, ammo, etc etc etc work, if they didn't I would buy something else.

 

I don't need a Nightforce on top of my Air rifle to hit things 30yards away and I don't decide which rifle to use for any job based on the cost of the ammunition!

Edited March 20, 2013 by Dekers

[kent]

 

 

A fox rifle can be defined as a rifle that's owner uses to shoot fox. By that same definition, a 250 yard fox rifle is a rifle that's owner uses to shoot fox at 250 yards.

 

Now, believe me, there's a damned sight fewer of those in the country that many would have you believe. Shooting at night, there's probably about 25% of that number previously indicated.

 

I don't know how you northerners get on with first CF applications, but as previously mentioned, you can help yourself by trying to get people to help you.

 

As a starting point, I'd have a look at seeing if that 250 yards is actually on the cards for you initially.

 

I don't know anyone who can guarantee a 250yds Hornet shot on a fox at 250 yds at night, too hard to read the wind at night 7.75 Moa for FV 10mph at that range that's like 19 1/2" of drift 7 3/4" at just 2.5mph ! No its not cricket. During the day it takes good conditions and an experienced hand at night a blagger who gets lucky.

 

Northern Licensing or Southern its all down to the individual applying and the person behind the desk. Look at the amount of threads on here about not being given a .243 for foxing or can I have a mentor please. strange as it might seem .222 is seen by many as less dangerous than .223 and 22-250 less dangerous than a .243 even though the latter are pretty much peas in a pod with 55 grn bullets. Until licensing is run by a panel of experienced civis we will get nowhere on this one

[wymberley]

 

Northern Licensing or Southern its all down to the individual applying and the person behind the desk.

 

Kent,

 

For crying out loud, this is the internet, lighten up. Benn is in Somerset - I'm taking the mickey to lighten the situation in which Benn is probably well confused with all of the conflicting advice to sort through.

[wymberley]

it all depends on the size of fields you have but as a guide a square 18 acre field is about 250 yards straight across, some times most of our shots are sub 100 yards usually in summer but come winter when you aren't driving on stubble then the ranges can creep up, my last one was about 220 and I have been further in the last few months as we have a number of 100 acre plus fields of direct drilled rape into stubble, thats not grown properly so the partridges and hares love it hence foxes being in the middle more often than not. If you can lamp from a vehicle you want something with some legs on it where you aren't dealing with large amounts of drop as you won't have the range finder out its down to your estimation. We also have a ***** problem and most are lamp shy so you rarely get much time and they rarely call properly which adds to the issue.

 

Down yer, a 100 acre area is known as the English Channel!