Philpots

[henry d]

Is that relevant here Henry?.

Absolutely, the Philpotts et al are a drop in the ocean compared with the tax avoiders.

[overandunder2012]

There are people in society who commit crime on a daily basis, are arrested several times a year and receive thousands of £££'s worth of legal aid every year whether they plead guilty or not guilty. Why should that be continued? Why should someone who has violated a householder's property or been caught committing assault and caught bang to rights inside be given any rights?

 

I agree with the principles of PACE, but it has gone too far. The rights of criminals are regarded as sacristan whilst those same criminals abuse the rights of anyone they choose.

yep theres lots of them on that we do agree but we do it because it has to be proved in court before they are found guilty its the british way of justice. nobody likes scum bags but someone cant have a fair trial without a defence. without these principles you may as well scrap the jury and appeal process to, i think its not about changing the legal process but they could sure look at sentencing and in cases where criminals have assets they could be seized to pay towards costs. its just an opinion i havent the answers to the problems

Edited April 5, 2013 by overandunder2012

[Kes]

Henry, you are losing the plot here you use the words "compared to", this is a thread about the Philpots - comparing what they have done on and for benefits to the 'tax avoiders' is a bit out there. Tax avoidance is legal, murder, scrounging etc wasnt the last time I looked. Morally I'd have thought you would be outraged by the Philpots.

[Mungler]

Henry, you are losing the plot here you use the words "compared to", this is a thread about the Philpots - comparing what they have done on and for benefits to the 'tax avoiders' is a bit out there. Tax avoidance is legal, murder, scrounging etc wasnt the last time I looked. Morally I'd have thought you would be outraged by the Philpots.

Indeed.

 

If someone or some company dodges their tax for a year then :

 

1. If they have tax 'avoided' then that's allowed (like it or not) and good luck to them having savvy accountants and advisers and playing the game within the rules. These days it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination to suggest a moral obligation to offer up your 'hard earned' to the government who using their amazing knowledge and wisdom will spend it for the greater good - from my point of view i give bundles of my money to the government who appear to me to hose it up a massive wall and give it to a whole generation who act like the Philpots (have you seen the statistics for people on the dole who have 'never' worked)

 

2. If they have tax 'evaded' then that's against the law and they could end up arrested by the very same coppers who knocked on Mick Philpot's door

 

Benefit scrounging isn't just about multiples of £68 each week.

 

By not putting into the system and having a dozen kids that will take out and keep taking out (health, education and public services) the numbers rack up and keep racking up.

[Vince Green]

Indeed.

 

If someone or some company dodges their tax for a year then :

 

1. If they have tax 'avoided' then that's allowed (like it or not) and good luck to them having savvy accountants and advisers and playing the game within the rules. These days it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination to suggest a moral obligation to offer up your 'hard earned' to the government who using their amazing knowledge and wisdom will spend it for the greater good - from my point of view i give bundles of my money to the government who appear to me to hose it up a massive wall and give it to a whole generation who act like the Philpots (have you seen the statistics for people on the dole who have 'never' worked)

 

2. If they have tax 'evaded' then that's against the law and they could end up arrested by the very same coppers who knocked on Mick Philpot's door

 

Benefit scrounging isn't just about multiples of £68 each week.

 

By not putting into the system and having a dozen kids that will take out and keep taking out (health, education and public services) the numbers rack up and keep racking up.

 

Very few benefits and tax fiddlers ever get caught in reality, many are doing both at the same time but there is always the burden of proof. The small fry are just ignored by the system because its too much effort to track them down. That enpowers others to do the same.

 

I see lots and lots of people who live on benefits as a lifestyle, they may be "entitled" but thats not the same as "justified". Just stop the benefits, it was a weird socialist experiment that has been totally discredited in my opinion.

 

Look after the genuinely needy by all means, in moderation, with practical assistance.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Vince Green

[johnny]

Leeds chimp its now to got the point that its not worth SWMBO actually going to work....took on an extra day...and now works out that we are worse off...

 

Is it the case she earns slightly more working than on benifit but have to work for it or is she getting less in her pocket at the end of the week

[henry d]

... Morally I'd have thought you would be outraged by the Philpots.

I am, I was a firefighter for 21 years too so know exactly how what they did would have killed the kids. My point is the fact that so many will jump on the band wagon of pointing their finger at these scroungers yet many will have their own tax/vat avoidance schemes. How many pay tax on everything they earn? Beaters wages, game sold to the game dealer, paying (paid) cash in hand for discounts? I`ll be the first to raise my hand that I haven`t.

 

Suppose I will now get dropped in it by someone from PW and get a knock on the door from the tax man

Edited April 6, 2013 by henry d

[UKPoacher]

yep theres lots of them on that we do agree but we do it because it has to be proved in court before they are found guilty its the british way of justice. nobody likes scum bags but someone cant have a fair trial without a defence. without these principles you may as well scrap the jury and appeal process to, i think its not about changing the legal process but they could sure look at sentencing and in cases where criminals have assets they could be seized to pay towards costs. its just an opinion i havent the answers to the problems

 

My answer is to privatise legal aid in the same way that you have legal cover in your car and household insurance. You pay an insurance company to provide legal assistance should you be unfortunate enough to be arrested for a criminal case. Those that are serial offenders can decide whether to pay the higher premiums or do without.

[Mungler]

The legal aid question is an interesting one and a valid point - the Philpots should have gone guilty and saved the Country the cost of a trial. But given that we are going to be footing the bill for their existence forever (both before prison, during prison and no doubt after prison) it's all rather circular. There are those that put in and there are those that rip the backside out of the Country.

 

As for how tax avoidance / evasion is some how the same or worse than the Philpots way of life?.... Are you on the proverbial crack pipe?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mungler

[kdubya]

I am, I was a firefighter for 21 years too so know exactly how what they did would have killed the kids. My point is the fact that so many will jump on the band wagon of pointing their finger at these scroungers yet many will have their own tax/vat avoidance schemes. How many pay tax on everything they earn? Beaters wages, game sold to the game dealer, paying (paid) cash in hand for discounts? I`ll be the first to raise my hand that I haven`t.

 

Suppose I will now get dropped in it by someone from PW and get a knock on the door from the tax man

For once I agree with you, (must not let that happen again) it seems the average bloke in the street is incapable of actually seeing what really goes on re the benefit culture of this country, yes the likes of the Phillpotts are the headline makers who the sun reader thinks makes up the total deficit of our welfare system, yet he applauds the "hard worker" who gets out of bed for a pittance lauding his self esteem and pride yet summarily ignoring the fact that they are benefit recipients just the same, and that his employers, some who make billions yes billions in profit (Tesco Asda etc) are using that benefit system in order to pay minimum wages whilst as said still raking in the billions.

 

Of course then their is the entrepreneur, the one who has built up a portfolio of property (most not fit to habitat a Somalian refugee) who week in week out bleed the welfare state of housing benefit due to their excessive rents,still anyone on housing benefit but working is not on benefit either are they? so they dont count like the phillpotts

 

Still a harsh shock may be coming the way of those who "play the game" as it seems the minimum wage may be reduced so really you are not being thanked for getting off your harris and getting work even if the state has to prop you up whilst your employer laughs literally all the way to the bank, as you will get no reward for your effort apart from another kick in the teeth?

 

KW

Edited April 6, 2013 by kdubya

[Mungler]

Why should anyone be thanked for getting off their backside? No one is owed anything.

 

The more I read this thread the more I am convinced the welfare state is done for - as a country we certainly can't afford it. The bloke who invented it created it as a safety net, not a way of life. But back then times were hard and people would be ashamed to be out of work.

 

People say they can't get work - for a whole generation and beyond? It' fascinating to see people in Poland with no work being bothered to come here and find it eh?

[johnny]

Why should anyone be thanked for getting off their backside? No one is owed anything.

 

The more I read this thread the more I am convinced the welfare state is done for - as a country we certainly can't afford it. The bloke who invented it created it as a safety net, not a way of life. But back then times were hard and people would be ashamed to be out of work.

 

People say they can't get work - for a whole generation and beyond? It' fascinating to see people in Poland with no work being bothered to come here and find it eh?

To true.. Here in east Anglia there are 1000s of Eastern Europeans some robbing so sponging but the majority are work bloody hard something are benefit culture spongers will never do...

[kdubya]

Why should anyone be thanked for getting off their backside? No one is owed anything.

 

The more I read this thread the more I am convinced the welfare state is done for - as a country we certainly can't afford it. The bloke who invented it created it as a safety net, not a way of life. But back then times were hard and people would be ashamed to be out of work.

 

People say they can't get work - for a whole generation and beyond? It' fascinating to see people in Poland with no work being bothered to come here and find it eh?

 

 

Plenty of work for the poles up here, problem is how do you compete? when like a chap I work with (wont call him a work mate) employs some poles to build him a workshop, did a good job and a lot cheaper but they lived in a tranny van parked on his drive for the fortnight it took to do the job, if your happy with that your a few centuries out of kilter

 

KW

[henry d]

...As for how tax avoidance / evasion is some how the same or worse than the Philpots way of life?.... Are you on the proverbial crack pipe?

That is not what I said, I pointed out that there are many who see them as using the welfare state for their own ends, myself included, yet are still not fully paying their way due to cash in hand deals etc.

Ethically speaking; to have a hierarchy of values may suit some people, but i am not so sure it fits me well.

[overandunder2012]

My answer is to privatise legal aid in the same way that you have legal cover in your car and household insurance. You pay an insurance company to provide legal assistance should you be unfortunate enough to be arrested for a criminal case. Those that are serial offenders can decide whether to pay the higher premiums or do without.

oh ok only the richer folk and "successful criminals" get justice maybe we should scrap the nhs to and adopt private health care seriously i respect you opinion but i cant agree with selective justice. british justice should remain with a minimum amount of representation for all if only so they can put a plea in and know what their charged with. il leave it here if thats ok as its going a bit of topic. philpots still a ****

Edited April 6, 2013 by overandunder2012

[unapalomablanca]

He and his ilk are a perfect example of why liberals should be rooted out of public life. He told the world what he was like when he was a young man after stabbing people and trying to kill them. That was the moment when us (society) was meant to be protected from him, this protection should have been in the immediate state administered ending of his time. These arrogant lefties make me sick with their disgusting promise that life would mean life for evil people. They cant be trusted,and meanwhile these ******** go on threatening and ruining society just in case they might 'change'.

[leeds chimp]

Leeds chimp its now to got the point that its not worth SWMBO actually going to work....took on an extra day...and now works out that we are worse off...

 

Is it the case she earns slightly more working than on benifit but have to work for it or is she getting less in her pocket at the end of the week

works out that working we now get less over all

Would le financial better off if she did not work at all

[pimpkiller]

Same here, im disabled and my partner works and supports me, If my partner quit or earned a little less we would have a dumptruck of money dropped on us or if we were both working we could both earn quite good money AND have a load of money given to us as well. One of the problems with the whole benefit system is people dont know how it actually works just see silly headlines in the papers.

 

Do you know for example that if you are disabled and cant work you DONT get free prescriptions or education.