New HMRC regulations

[perdix22]

The good old HMRC are bringing in a new law that requires all beaters pay to be declared within 7 days quoting the beaters name,address and NI number as most of those it matters to will no doubt be aware of.

I am wondering how people on here think it will effect the "beating world" especially for shoots that run mid-week?

 

[pboro shot]

it shoudnt really it the beaters are smart about it they may even be better of but they need to be regulars otherwise might be whorse of tax wise i dont think ifs going to affect things to much

[Paul223]

I can see lots of beaters being paid a penny and creating a whole load of paper work

[Kes]

Just stop formally paying your beaters and ask them to sign a paper saying that and that they are self employed for the purposes of any future payement. Then pay them as usual but individually and let them sort HMRC personally.

[ColinF]

I don't think it will make much difference to beaters, but it will make it more expensive for the shoots as they will probably end up paying the tax and have to sort out the extra admin of running a payroll every time they hold a shoot. So if a beater is normally paid £20, I think they will still get their £20, but the shoot will have grossed it up for tax purposes and deducted the tax and national insurance. The extra cost will have to be passed on to the paying guns.

 

Depending on their overall tax position, some beaters will probably be able to claim the tax back, making them better off.

 

 

Just stop formally paying your beaters and ask them to sign a paper saying that and that they are self employed for the purposes of any future payement. Then pay them as usual but individually and let them sort HMRC personally.

 

Unfortunately, just signing a bit of paper won't make someone self employed in the eyes of HMRC, otherwise everyone would be self employed.

[leeds chimp]

i dont mind..i am reg S/E so will declare it....i would be better off as can then claim boots clothes food drink etc

[Paul223]

 

i dont mind..i am reg S/E so will declare it....i would be better off as can then claim boots clothes food drink etc

Yes too true, plus dog food and vets bills, training equipment and may be even some cartridges for the purpose of training, all for one days beating a year and above board!

[al4x]

Its interesting as it is a token gesture on most shoots, its not exactly minimum wage on most so you have to wonder if it isn't a recipe for wasting far more money than it collects. I have an inkling most will ignore it but we shall see, our syndicate will definitely ignore it as its a tenner each that comes straight from the guns so untraceable.

[mpk]

Pay them in whisky, more pheasants or an extra beaters day !!

[ColinF]

i dont mind..i am reg S/E so will declare it....i would be better off as can then claim boots clothes food drink etc

 

It's not your choice, it's down to the shoot to decide if you are employed or self employed and pay you accordingly. There are HMRC penalties for the shoot if they get it wrong.

 

 

Its interesting as it is a token gesture on most shoots, its not exactly minimum wage on most so you have to wonder if it isn't a recipe for wasting far more money than it collects. I have an inkling most will ignore it but we shall see, our syndicate will definitely ignore it as its a tenner each that comes straight from the guns so untraceable.

 

The new rules are not aimed at shoots, but are designed to catch people in industries where cash payments for casual labour is very common like fruit picking, farming, building etc, it's just a coincidence that cash payments to beaters are also caught. I agree that small shoots will probably ignore it, especially the ones that are not run as a business and only shoot a few days a year.

 

Larger shoots, that run on a commercial basis will have to comply with the new rules and deduct tax and NIC from beaters pay. I know a commercial shoot that runs 2 to 3 days a week, and their cash payments to beaters, pickers and other staff are around £1,000 per shoot day, so it will make quite a difference to them. There are also beaters and pickers who are out 5 or 6 days a week through the season, which adds up to a tidy sum. They won't be any worse off, but they will have paid tax on their income.

[AlistairB]

Presumably they'd have to be sent a P60 at the end of the financial year then Colin?

 

AB

[sitsinhedges]

Can't you just be paid as expenses for the day with no wage as such?

[al4x]

Larger shoots, that run on a commercial basis will have to comply with the new rules and deduct tax and NIC from beaters pay. I know a commercial shoot that runs 2 to 3 days a week, and their cash payments to beaters, pickers and other staff are around £1,000 per shoot day, so it will make quite a difference to them. There are also beaters and pickers who are out 5 or 6 days a week through the season, which adds up to a tidy sum. They won't be any worse off, but they will have paid tax on their income.

 

the interesting thing may be what rate of tax is applied as they won't have anything to go on so it could well be an emergency rate used which would add a fair chunk to it

[AlistairB]

Unless they all had to give their tax code to the shoot in order to be paid, but it would get complex if it tipped you over one of the tax thresholds i guess.

[ColinF]

Presumably they'd have to be sent a P60 at the end of the financial year then Colin?

 

AB

 

Yes, if they are treated as employed.

[AlistairB]

Yes, if they are treated as employed.

Which brings with it a whole additional world of pain!!

[ColinF]

the interesting thing may be what rate of tax is applied as they won't have anything to go on so it could well be an emergency rate used which would add a fair chunk to it

 

There are forms to fill out to give a tax code for each employment, but if its not their only or main job they would probably end up with a BR code, which is 20% of everything

[al4x]

Unless they all had to give their tax code to the shoot in order to be paid, but it would get complex if it tipped you over one of the tax thresholds i guess.

 

if it was your only job then fine but as a second or third job it sounds a bit of a nightmare

[ColinF]

Which brings with it a whole additional world of pain!!

 

Yep, minimum wage? Benefits in kind?

[jasons gold]

Yep, minimum wage? Benefits in kind?

ppe, public liability insurance

[al4x]

Do wax leggings count as Ppe?

[perdix22]

I reckon it could end up being a real can of worms.

Most of the lads I know that beat really only cover the cost of their travel and lunch with the pay they get so how many will carry on if they have to declare it.

Will it affect pensioners(a lot of the beaters where I keepered were)?

[ColinF]

I reckon it could end up being a real can of worms.

Most of the lads I know that beat really only cover the cost of their travel and lunch with the pay they get so how many will carry on if they have to declare it.

Will it affect pensioners(a lot of the beaters where I keepered were)?

They should be ok as they will still receive the same amount, if the shoot pays the tax. They won't need to declare it if it's already been taxed by the shoot.

 

Pensioners are the most likely people to be better off. If they are over 65, their personal allowance is about £10,500, so if their annual income is less than that they will be able to reclaim the tax deducted by the shoot, from HMRC at the end of the tax year.

[perdix22]

Nice one Colin

[HDAV]

 

Which brings with it a whole additional world of pain!!

Risk assements, method statements, HSE charge £124 per hour so next time a beater falls over, gets shot etc the bill for the shoot will be much larger......don't forget the welfare for the staff " toilets, hand washing. Facility to heat food, fresh drinking water, facilities for pregnant women to lie down........as beaters will take employee numbers up shoots may also need additional paperwork written H&S policy etc.

 

I don't see how beaters could be anything but self employed really they choose their attendance. Hopefully BASC, NGO, NOBS will be all over this, agriculture and forestry + related activities could be the next prime target for HMRC and HSE.

Edited April 6, 2013 by HDAV