Wildfowling candidate for BASC Election

[harrycatcat1]

I have recently voted for John Graham because he is a wildfowler and in my opinion we need as much of a voice as possible on the Council. I am just reminding folks that there is this chance to get another wildfowler on Council.

 

You can vote on line on the BASC members area or by post and the form that came with the magazine.

Don't lose the chance to vote for someone at least.

 

Regards

 

Hcc

 

 

 

[Kes]

Is this the John Graham who thinks BASC reserves should be ploughed into buying land for - wildfowlers (and probably still thinks he belongs to WAGBI) ?

 

I agree with the 'vote for someone' however.

There are many types of shooters in BASC and many different needs.

[Reabrook]

Oh that it was still WAGBI. I've voted for John and would urge other Wildfowlers to do so as well.

[bakerboy]

I voted Duncan Grieves, more of an all rounder in my opinion.

[Dee Wildfowler]

I tried to get BASC to think about buying land before I retired as Chairman in 2006,, but the then Chief Executive didn't want to know and the idea got nowhere. I re-introduced the idea at a meeting of the WLC in 2009 and it was well received, the WLC wanted it to go before Council so I wrote a couple of papers on the subject which were put forward by some friends on Council. Once again, the idea was blocked but I'm pleased to say that the light is at last being seen and the current Council are giving the idea serious consideration.

 

I can say that when I was Chairman, I probably instituted more changes to the way BASC operates than any other individual, and I couldn't have done that if I was narrow minded and fixated on the past. The papers I wrote on the subject of land purchase I did say that BASC would probably consider buying wetlands because they are in short supply and they support wildfowl that form part of the quarry species of a majority of shooting people in this country but that BASC should consider purchasing all types of land, from uplands to forestry and everything in between. The decision as to which type of land should be bought would be left to a small group of experts, the decision would not be influenced by partisan members of Council.

 

Kes tries to make a snide comment that I think BASC reserves should be ploughed in land for wildfowlers, - well he's partly right, I do believe that SOME of the reserves should be converted into land holdings. In recent years the best returns from investment have been from land, leaving some £5 million sitting in a bank making little interest is not the best use of our money. Kes is also right when he says that there are many different types of shooters in BASC and many different needs but what he fails to say is that no matter what your particular branch of shooting might be, you need land on which to carry out your sport. Land is in short supply and other groups and organisations are hell bent on buying land, and it often then becomes a reserve. We must invest in land for the future of shooting.

 

Bakerboy, I know Duncan as we served on Council for nearly 10 years together, and he's a good man. But this is a wildfowling thread, and wildfowling has always been my passion, so I make no apologies in asking people to support me and vote for me in the election.

 

John

[ayano3]

I believe that BASC needs representives that can cover all areas of shooting, but as I am Wildfowler my vote would be swung towards a fellow wildfowler if the agenda was what I thought as correct.

John, you mention buying land, especially wetlands, can you answer in laymans terms what exactly you mean. Do you mean BASC buys the land as an association or joins up with wildfowling clubs or even smaller coastal consortiums that have the opportunity to buy any land that comes available? I dont mean helping clubs that would be interested in buying up other clubs land neither, otherwise we will in time finish up with one or two clubs having a monolopy of all coastal and in fact inland wildfowling. My feeling isiIts not the mega rich clubs from other areas that wish to buy up what I would call other clubs land that BASC should be helping in land purchase, but the smaller organisations and parties that have no chance of competing with the rich.

Its a tough decision where and when to spend our hard earned subscriptions and various donations we all make via raffles etc, we will all have different opinions, but we all appreciate that we need to look after our sport, history and heritage, wether that be wildfowling or other shooting related sports and our conservation programmes.

 

I look forward to your answer before I cast my vote.

 

As the line about WAGBI......thats where BASC roots were firmly set, lets not forget the black hut.

[Kes]

"Kes tries to make a snide comment that I think BASC reserves should be ploughed in land for wildfowlers, - well he's partly right, I do believe that SOME of the reserves should be converted into land holdings. In recent years the best returns from investment have been from land, leaving some £5 million sitting in a bank making little interest is not the best use of our money. Kes is also right when he says that there are many different types of shooters in BASC and many different needs but what he fails to say is that no matter what your particular branch of shooting might be, you need land on which to carry out your sport. Land is in short supply and other groups and organisations are hell bent on buying land, and it often then becomes a reserve. We must invest in land for the future of shooting."

 

It isn't snide to tell the truth and, if you had bothered to look, I do support buying land for all types of shooting, just not from reserves, Using small amounts from reserves to part fund the contributions of members after forming a special land purchase budget might be possible.

However, reserves are held for the purpose of ensuring the financial health of the organisation they support and reserves may be considered too high or too low by an ACCOUNTANT.

If reserves are high then the ACCOUNTANT should make recommendations on what level of reserves need to be held in current circumstances. Basc has staff and pension liabilities etc etc.

I do not believe you know the detail of what is genuinely surplus and available for 'other uses' in the reserves held by BASC.

 

Also, just because someone who has a different point of view and voices it, does not make them 'snide' and as a BASC member I am personally pleased you are no longer Chairman with your critical uncaring attitude to this member for one. I would therefore urge all who can to vote for others in the election. You seem to have had your ideas shelved quite a number of times - this would suggest the mechanism you chose was not acceptable - why not allow the opinions of others to be heard - or dont you believe they have anything to say except maybe snide comments - remember I am a BASC member and you are just that yourself. I suggest you read the first line of the question I raised again.

BASC doesnt need people who are as opinionated as you seem to be. It has been said we have two ears and one mouth ..........

Edited April 19, 2013 by Kes

[Dee Wildfowler]

Ayano3,

 

I believe that it should be BASC that buys and holds the land and that it then leases the land to a local club or syndicate, depending on the type of land and the type of shooting. I have concerns over clubs buying land as there is no club in the land that has a life expectancy of more than 12 months. We all have to renew our memberships every year and while we may feel confident that our members will stay with us, they may not for various reasons e.g. changes in gun or quarry species law. If the club can't maintain it's membership then it may close and any land holdings may be sold and lost to shooting. BASC is big enough to survive where a club can't so it would be better for land purchase to be done by BASC on behalf of it's membership. Buying land is a huge commitment for a club and if BASC could do it and lease it to the club, then the club's shooting would be safe without over stretching the club. I know that the Kent Club has caused considerable resentment in some parts but they are buying land that might be otherwise be lost to shooting and they are offering memberships. The KWCA has shown what can be down by it's purchase policy, a club with some 500 or so members now has several £million of land, just imagine what BASC could achieve with it''s membership and income.There is also the economies of scale, being bigger BASC would be more likely to attract grants and other sources of such money.

 

Kes,

 

You don't seem to like me, well thats OK as I don't do things to make myself popular. I don't intend to enter into prolonged dialogue with you but I will just make a few points on your posting.

 

You insinuate that I want to spend BASC reserves to buy land for wildfowlers, and that I probably still think I belong to WAGBI. Both are untrue, I have suggested that BASC should try to buy all types of land and the recommendation would be made by experts separate to Council, and I'm aware that WAGBI finished thirty years ago.

 

You suggest that reserves should be controlled by an accountant. All finances in BASC are MANAGED by an accountant but the decision how much should be held in reserve and how and why it might be spent lies within the remit of Council. You suggest that I don't know the detail of the reserves, for your information I introduced the reserves policy which identifies all potential liabilities, the associated risks and how much should be maintained in reserves. The reserves policy is reviewed on a regular basis.

 

As I said, attempts to pursuade Council to buy land failed, despite the best efforts of the wildfowling, and other, members of Council. What happened is confidential but I will make the point that we now have a new Chief Executive and things are begining to change.

 

I have no problem with you criticising me, provided you get the facts correct.

 

John

[Kes]

I have no interest in criticising you - and accountants advise, I agree, and recommend -usually based on industry norms or the CIPFA Codes.

Well done to you if you you introduced a reserves policy - didnt BASC have accountants then - not even anyone with previous experience of proper financial management procedures?

If BASC Council doesnt agree with you, does that make them wrong or just a body with more than your opinion ?

Perhaps you express yourself less well than you should but your statements still boil down to, "everyone disagrees with me and they are wrong".

 

The politics of BASC have limited appeal but the new CE has yet to get my vote for anything he has done. Maybe its his job to carry out Councils or Chairmans direction and advise only on what that direction should be.? In which case,, as Chairman, you should have directed the CE - shouldn't you? So what does that say about your tenure ?

These are rhetorical questions to which I do not need answers - I will voluntarily absent myself from further comment, on the grounds that I am not standing for Chairman or indeed any office.

[scolopax]

Another vote for John Graham.

[Kes]

Someone else.

 

Another vote for John Graham.

One for someone else.

[andrewluke]

John Graham also got my vote,

 

andrew

[Dee Wildfowler]

Kes,

 

I'll try to answer your questions but I can't be too candid.

 

When I joined Council in 1996 and until I became Chairman in 2004, there were only 4 scheduled meetings a year,in September, November, March and May. The length of the time between meetings meant that it often took 2 hours or more just to do "matters arising"

as memories had faded and issues were re-argued. In my first meeting in charge I proposed, and it was accepted, that there should be a meeting every month except August and December so with 10 meetings a year Council were operating in real time. I also had the first draft of the Minutes in members hands within a week and any required amendments were made before the next meeting, so that saved at least 2 hours a meeting. Simple and perhaps blindingly obvious but no-one else had thought of it.

 

It must be remembered that Council is composed of volunteers who come from all the various branches of shooting, from Chairmen of big wildfowling clubs who are used to operating in a committee environment, to individuals such as a gamekeeper or a stalker, who do

not operate in a committee and who sometimes find it overwhelming. A Council term is 5 years and when we only had 4 meetings a year, I've seen such individuals spend their 5 year term without speaking once on a subject!

 

Council was not operating in professional, business-like way and I think this suited staff in the Mill as they were left to get on with doing what they thought was right, without too much interference. I've been there when relations between the Chairman and the CEO were both frosty and firey, neither being conducive to a productive meeting and lead to a "them and us" situation between staff and Council.

 

My predecessor was Alan Jarett and he started to rebulid relations and when I became Chair I was able to take things further, but it takes time to change attitudes, to create confidence and to unify different factions. It only takes one or two individuals determined to be disruptive, to spoli things for everyone, and I certainly had a couple of those. My understanding is that Council is now operating on a much more business - like way and that last week's meeting, the first with the new CEO, was a revalation - that's great news.

 

With regard to the new CEO, he has come from Industry and is used to operating in a professional way. He employs the staff and will be looking at all departments and operations to ensure BASC is as efficient as can be. He attends all Council meetings, ensures Council receives all necessary management information and offers advice at meetings. From what I know of him at this point, he is a world away from the previous CEO and I have high hopes that BASC will continue to develope. This is one of the reasons I would like to be back on Council because I believe I can use my knowledge and experience, both in my working life and from my time in BASC, to assist in the further development of the Association.

 

I have to be careful about what I write but what I'm trying to say is get over is that BASC, and in particular Council, was not the vehicle we would have liked it to been, but things are changing and with a new CEO we have the opportunity to redirect and re-energise Council, and I'd like to be part of that.

 

John

[Reabrook]

Someone else.

 

 

One for someone else.

Who is your recommendation and why?

 

I'd also be interested in your vision for the future of BASC if it doesn't involve land purchase.

[ayano3]

John, thanks for the reply. My concerns were that many of the smaller clubs and syndicatedkleased land would be gobbled up and their members swept by the wayside. G know some members on this forum are already worried about shooting they have historically had the rights too are threatened. If....your views become reality it can only be good. I am not blinkered towards wildfowling clubs but I asked about the wildfowling because that has been my main sport for over thirty years. Other groups could also benefit and I would support the association in any decision made whatever line of countrysport they decided to support. If the council all support you and share your thoughts it could be the way forward as long as the relevant clubs and syndicates have are left to carry out and have their say in any management plans. Good luck in the election.

[Dee Wildfowler]

I know that the decision has been taken to buy some land, it hasn't been decided where or when but the committment has been taken to start a land acquisition policy. I'm very pleased even although its seven years since I first broached the topic. Mighty oaks from small acorns grow, the decision has been taken to sow the acorn so now we'll nuture the project, prove it's worth and then move onto further purchases.

 

I'm very busy at the moment. I'm Treasurer of the Dee Wildfowlers and today is the last day for receipt of subs and there's a procession of people coming to the house. If anyone wants me to clarify or expand on anything, please pm me you phone number and I'll get back to as soon as possible.

 

John

[Dee Wildfowler]

According to this week's edition of Farming Weekly over the last ten years land values have increased by 245%. If only I'd been listened to those years ago!!. BASC is going to start land acquistion, so better late than never.

 

John

[Kes]

John,

Thank you for the response and the consideration shown to spend the time doing it. I have to say that I come from a background where what you described would not happen and what you say you changed would be part, a major part of the solution. I would also argue that a form of delegation could be arranged between the CEO and the Chairman to initiate and complete tasks and funding and report back to the Council. This would allow much more business to be carried out and scrutinised at those meetings which are held. Having an agreed policy is however essential.

 

I have mentioned that I agree with land purchase as a principle but subject to strict controls or, if you like, an agreed policy to ensure the factional interests in shooting are treated fairly and in ways that would be logical i.e a democratically based system. I would try and arrange a part (council agreement) of the subs are to be paiddirectly into a formalised land purchase account and information passed to clubs etc as to how they should notify BASC Chairman of any land purchase opportunities. Some sort of scoring matrix needs to be created to ensure the land proposed to be purchased is 'worthwhile' and the clubs concerned would need to commit to allowing day access for other BASC members, under appropriate supervision etc.

I dont think one should deplete reserves and risk the organisation as a whole. That said there could be scope within current reserves for pump priming a 'land purchase budget'.Again here an accountant guided by stated Councilpolicy on reserves could advise and begin the process.

It is always easier to sit in a chair and comment, I appreciate that, but I have also been to the EU and various other places giving presentations to Ministers and been responsible for a deal of money in my employment - so I EXPECT BASC to be run in a modern, efficient, and effective way with exemplary fiduciary management and recognising the lead role of Council.

Thanks again for your response - we seem to be getting there and your comments have modified my view of you and I trust we shall now be on better terms.

 

I still would not agree, ever, to using an irresponsible amount of reserves at BASC to buy just any old land (there are other and wise investments) for one or two groups - I would expect you too would consider the proper way and ensure all members could see the justification in any land purchase policy and sign up to it universally.

I have voted for someone else this time but if you are a shooter and not just a wildfowler, I will consider voting for you in the next election since I now feel you are not necessarily part of the problem.

 

A separate additional subscription from all members would be wise and if this was requested in addition to normal subs, many would sign up I feel, provided, of course, they were convinced by a land purchase policy, strategy and that such funds would be used for the benefit of all shooters - shooting leases can be just as valuable given the length of term justifies its inclusion in an agreed policy. Perhaps a questionaire to members with detailed proposals could guide a worthwhile approach on this.

 

You have to admit wildfowlers signing up to a wildfowler Chairman to use resreves for excusively purchase of land for wildfowling isnt going to gain majority support. This is what prompted my initial comments.

Thank you again for explaining rather than insulting.

Kes

[Kes]

Who is your recommendation and why?

 

I'd also be interested in your vision for the future of BASC if it doesn't involve land purchase.

 

This time I voted for Duncan Greives - as has already been mentioned - perhaps more of an all rounder. I have nothing against wildfowlers but your conviction.

Being a part of shooting means being more than just a wildfowler. More information on candidates would help and Mymwood has advised where this might be obtained but to know what is to be done, you have to know what the present situation is and as far as BASC is concerned I shall look more closely at accounts and policies in all areas.

Dont take my recommendation - I do not set myself up as someone who places themselves above others - you have asked I have replied but all candidates will do their best. Its judging whose best is better.

 

Sorry, edit to respond to land purchase question = please see previous post and I will expand that if you feel it would help.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Kes

[DOLLSEYES]

Just voted for John.

[Reabrook]

 

This time I voted for Duncan Greives - as has already been mentioned - perhaps more of an all rounder. I have nothing against wildfowlers but your conviction.

Being a part of shooting means being more than just a wildfowler. More information on candidates would help and Mymwood has advised where this might be obtained but to know what is to be done, you have to know what the present situation is and as far as BASC is concerned I shall look more closely at accounts and policies in all areas.

Dont take my recommendation - I do not set myself up as someone who places themselves above others - you have asked I have replied but all candidates will do their best. Its judging whose best is better.

 

Sorry, edit to respond to land purchase question = please see previous post and I will expand that if you feel it would help.

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't take yours or indeed anybody's recommendations at face value preferring to make my own mind up having weighed up all the candidates.

The problem with ' all rounders' is they are exactly that. Often wishing to please all but achieving nothing. That's not a dig at Mr Grieves who I'm sure is a good man.

I don't need you to expand on your Land Purchase post any further but I'd quite like to know what you find wrong with the conviction shown by the Wildfowling community?

Having been involved in shooting as long as I have I'm aware that there are other aspects of the sport than Wildfowling. However we all have our preferences be that choice gun, cartridge, dog or quarry.

[ayano3]

Guys, I have to say amongst us there are some very good discussions. If we all sing from the same hymn sheet shooting is in good hands.

[ROYLE11]

Another vote for John

[Kes]

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't take yours or indeed anybody's recommendations at face value preferring to make my own mind up having weighed up all the candidates.

The problem with ' all rounders' is they are exactly that. Often wishing to please all but achieving nothing. That's not a dig at Mr Grieves who I'm sure is a good man.

I don't need you to expand on your Land Purchase post any further but I'd quite like to know what you find wrong with the conviction shown by the Wildfowling community?

Having been involved in shooting as long as I have I'm aware that there are other aspects of the sport than Wildfowling. However we all have our preferences be that choice gun, cartridge, dog or quarry.

 

Hi, to respond to the 'conviction' comment.

May I firstly stress I am NOT a candidate - yet. However John's comment suggest I should get off my bottom and stand for a future Council place, assuming there are others who feel as I do.

 

Conviction - Most wildfowlers I have met and books I have read and my personal experience suggest that the experience of wildfowling is almost 'spiritual' a communing with nature and the elements in such wild and beautiful places that the sport produces a 'conviction' in its followers that there is NOTHING as rewarding in shooting, as a day on the marsh. seeing PeterScotts drawings is a measure of this simple truth.

References to the Black Hut and the past greats of wildfowling. are almost reverential and why should they not be ?

Margaret Thatcher was a 'conviction' politician and eventually went off course and was unable to see it.

I am for all shooters and if organisations can raise money to buy reserves so can BASC, It seems a logical policy if done in the right way with support of all members. I am even for buying land to protect species which are under threat and allow wildfowling to continue - there may therefore be common ground with other groups who seek to protect and recognise to do that may involve control of other species.

Getting back to 'conviction' - it usually means a perspective, a bias, a blind spot taken to extreme. Conviction is not inclusive and therefore unsubtle and potentially uncaring of other opinions.

It may be that wildfowlers feel they have been the poor relation of the shooting community, if so then the 'conviction' is not always a good thing.

BASC has to be inclusive and has to recognise all the threats. Land purchase is no bad thing but e.g. as a thought - buying farms and leasing those to young farmers but keeping shooting rights and developing habitat with the benefit of DEFRA's HLS schemes - Its not just about coastal land and it's not just about wildfowlers. Policy to buy land and the strategy to deliver that policy need to engage all. Conviction therefore should be viewed with a degree of concern.

I know wildfowler feel their sport is special - I have been one.

[Terry P]

No wildfowler is saying that only marshes should be bought, simply that BASC should be buying land. The land should be bought where the main priorty is eg where its in danger of being lost to shooting, at the moment the RSPB are buying marshes and BASC should be compeating with them or infact approaching farmers and offering to buy either the land or the shooting rights at the very least.

I do not care what land BASC buy as long as they start buying it soon.

 

I gave my vote to john not because he is a wildfowler but because he has a proven track record in BASC, dealing with councils and clearly had the vision to try and buy land years ago but was shafted by the dinosaurs that were on the committee then, BASC could be sitting on a fortune know if they had listened then, but instead 1000's of acres of marsh has been lost to conservation bodies, probably loads of farmland also but being a wildfowler I would not know about that.