hmr accuracy

[Paul223]

yeah it does sound like it is related to the moderator, thread or crown,if by changing the mod has made a differance then look more closely at that area, my guess will be the thread is out

[Gregthegreat]

My guess would be the crown. If it is the same without a mod then this is definitely something to get a gunsmith to look at. Mods aid accuracy by helping to stabilise the round so changing from one to the other may have an affect as you said with the SAK.

 

The fact that you can shoot very well with other rifles will generally mean that you will be able to achieve similar results with a different rifle.

 

Not to insult your intelligence but often it's one simple thing:

 

Is your firing position consistent? Are you fully in control of the rifle? Are you naturally aligned onto your target? Do you have a clear sight picture and is the sight attached securely and sufficiently zeroed (ie not having to aim off the target)? Are you releasing each shot consistently and following each shot through?

 

Is your ammunition clean, dry, oil free? Is your chamber oil free?

 

Do you have any other attachments than the bipod fitted? Barrel mounted torches etc which will affect the harmonics of the rifle?

 

These are the key points to address and if you are satisfied with all of the above and based on the info you've already provided then the rifle is almost certainly at fault.

 

Greg.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Gregthegreat

[turbo33]

Ok an update as promised. I popped down to see a mate who regularly uses an HMR as well as c/f. He is one of the "head shoot" rabbits and hares at 150yds. I cleaned the rifle before I went over there. This is how clean, clean is

 

When I arrived there, I put 5 shots through it as "fowling shots" at 100yds, all high by 2" in a 4" group, but fairly central, then had a go at 50 yards with another 5. They were ok, but not great, 3 in the inch circle, one in the 9 and a way off flyer in 7 Then I met up with my mate. We put a target out on the "bunny" range and shot from his usual sniping spot. No wind, perfect He put 5 shots through it, lasered at 126 yds, from the top of the land rover on a bench bag. The target is up side down, so the shots you see fall right and low in reality, but not even on target :o When we walked up to the target, he was quite shocked. He said he would expect them all, bar maybe a flyer to be inside the black. He said there was no point in wasting anymore ammunition, I agreed.

 

 

I guess its good either way. If he had hit the bull, I would know its me and my **** shooting, so room for improvement. As he is experiencing the same as me, there is clearly a major fault.........who knows what it is. It has to be barrel or crown. I'm not quite sure where to go with it at the moment. Yes, take it back, not fit for purpose etc. But you know what the answer will be, we'll send it off, we haven't heard back yet, another two weeks, he's away at the moment, bla bla.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2013 by turbo33

[la bala]

its got to go back mate ASAP keep us posted, good luck.

[joe soapy]

Ok an update as promised. I popped down to see a mate who regularly uses an HMR as well as c/f. He is one of the "head shoot" rabbits and hares at 150yds. I cleaned the rifle before I went over there. This is how clean, clean is

 

When I arrived there, I put 5 shots through it as "fowling shots" at 100yds, all high by 2" in a 4" group, but fairly central, then had a go at 50 yards with another 5. They were ok, but not great, 3 in the inch circle, one in the 9 and a way off flyer in 7 Then I met up with my mate. We put a target out on the "bunny" range and shot from his usual sniping spot. No wind, perfect He put 5 shots through it, lasered at 126 yds, from the top of the land rover on a bench bag. The target is up side down, so the shots you see fall right and low in reality, but not even on target :o When we walked up to the target, he was quite shocked. He said he would expect them all, bar maybe a flyer to be inside the black. He said there was no point in wasting anymore ammunition, I agreed

 

different shooter,,,. different point of impact? stock pressing on barrel, you are leaning on forend

 

 

I guess its good either way. If he had hit the bull, I would know its me and my **** shooting, so room for improvement. As he is experiencing the same as me, there is clearly a major fault.........who knows what it is. It has to be barrel or crown. I'm not quite sure where to go with it at the moment. Yes, take it back, not fit for purpose etc. But you know what the answer will be, we'll send it off, we haven't heard back yet, another two weeks, he's away at the moment, bla bla. ,,

[turbo33]

Respectfully Joe, you're either missing the point or have not read through the previous posts.The first 10 shots were taken off a bipod, middle stud, no pressure, it has already been checked for floating and it is by a safe margin. This is the whole point, the groups and poi are all over the place. Obviously a different shooter will have a different style so maybe the poi would be slightly different, I'm not so concerned about that, but the groups are shocking, nearly 3 inches across. Whats your theory on that?

Edited April 26, 2013 by turbo33

[Frenchieboy]

I really would not expect it to be an expensive or long job to have the crown done by a reputable gun smith, they might even be able to do it while you wait, and that really is where I would want to start if I were you!

Had the grouping improved without a moderator then I would expect it to be the threading on the barrel being poorly cut, but you say that there is little improvement without the moderator on so I would expect to see a marked improvement when the barrel is properly recrowned!

[snipers eye]

hi,i had a 22lr like that some years ago,turned out to be a warped barrel,got rid of it

[dadioles]

Hi Turbo33

 

There is clearly a problem with your gun or ammunition as I don't see that the problem is you.

In a case like this you must always take it back to basics.

Remove the moderator and leave it off (protect your ears)

Try one or two other makes of ammunition (not just batches of the same).

Shoot off a bipod in windless conditions at an accurately measured 100 yards.

My guess is that you may still have the problem.

You have checked free floating, it will not be caused by the trigger.

That leaves the crown and the scope and also cleaning.

A word about cleaning....

Your patches seemed to show that you have cleaned out the powder residue but I could not detect any blue on the patches and wonder if you have cleaned out the copper.

I am one of the "clean thoroughly" brigade and do not have a problem with accuracy, even with the first bullet after a clean.

I just wonder if your rifling (incredibly shallow and fine) is contaminated with copper deposit. What did you use as liquid cleaner?

Can you try a different scope (borrow one?) Unless I have missed the post you have not eliminated that possibility. Are your turrets on the scope adjusted to near their end stops for example. Ideally at your zero distance they should be about half way.

 

So....

a) completely different make of ammunition

b) clean again using copper remover that has blue colour when copper present.

c) mount a different scope and make sure the turrets are not near their end stops.

Then start worrying about the crown.

[Dekers]

Whatever the RFD may say or however long it may take, What is the point of having a rifle that shoots like a shotgun?

 

Get it back and take all your targets and evidence with you.

 

ATB!

[turbo33]

Thanks for the replies men, off to the dealers tomorrow. I expect it will be the usual agro, denial, long wait, more agro, more denial, even longer wait. So expect an update by......................august Will post the results on this thread

[masmiffy]

As has been said get rid of the mod and try again.

Had a similar problem with an Anshutz 22 rimmy **** wit the mod on spot on with it off!

Took it back to shop got new mod after showing problem now its as good with the mod on!

Try shooting from a 'proper' bench rest and not the bipod when zeroing see what that does to it.

[joe soapy]

Respectfully Joe, you're either missing the point or have not read through the previous posts.The first 10 shots were taken off a bipod, middle stud, no pressure, it has already been checked for floating and it is by a safe margin. This is the whole point, the groups and poi are all over the place. Obviously a different shooter will have a different style so maybe the poi would be slightly different, I'm not so concerned about that, but the groups are shocking, nearly 3 inches across. Whats your theory on that?

Hmm, different shooter different point of impact.... would have thought a crown or barrel fault would at least be fairly consistant in its errow between shooters

[Dekers]

Hmm, different shooter different point of impact.... would have thought a crown or barrel fault would at least be fairly consistant in its errow between shooters

 

Did I miss something, I thought the group was fairly consistant (bad), the POI was different but that is common with another shooter!

 

My lad groups well, but in a slightly different place to me!

 

Edit....

Perhaps I have this slightly out of context!

Edited April 26, 2013 by Dekers

[turbo33]

Did I miss something, I thought the group was fairly consistant (bad), the POI was different but that is common with another shooter!

 

My lad groups well, but in a slightly different place to me!

 

Edit....

Perhaps I have this slightly out of context!

 

I agree, different shooter, I would expect a slightly different poi, but irrespective of the poi the groups are consistant between both shooters.

Edited April 26, 2013 by turbo33

[Dekers]

I agree, different shooter, I would expect a slightly different poi, but irrespective of the poi the groups are terrible.

 

I think that is something we are pretty much all agreed on, the PW collective have spoken, let us hope for a favourable outcome!

[joe soapy]

Did I miss something, I thought the group was fairly consistant (bad), the POI was different but that is common with another shooter!

 

My lad groups well, but in a slightly different place to me!

 

Edit....

Perhaps I have this slightly out of context!

I read it as high but centrel for 1 shooter in a fairly large group

2nd shooter a long way low and right, again a largeish group.

even with 2 shooters i would have expected some overlapping of such large groups without some external force being exerted..

 

Quite interested to know the answer, as my plastic one had a fit for a couple days when it gave scattered groups. still dont know why...

[Dekers]

Ok an update as promised. I popped down to see a mate who regularly uses an HMR as well as c/f. He is one of the "head shoot" rabbits and hares at 150yds. I cleaned the rifle before I went over there. This is how clean, clean is

 

When I arrived there, I put 5 shots through it as "fowling shots" at 100yds, all high by 2" in a 4" group, but fairly central, then had a go at 50 yards with another 5. They were ok, but not great, 3 in the inch circle, one in the 9 and a way off flyer in 7 Then I met up with my mate. We put a target out on the "bunny" range and shot from his usual sniping spot. No wind, perfect He put 5 shots through it, lasered at 126 yds, from the top of the land rover on a bench bag. The target is up side down, so the shots you see fall right and low in reality, but not even on target :o When we walked up to the target, he was quite shocked. He said he would expect them all, bar maybe a flyer to be inside the black. He said there was no point in wasting anymore ammunition, I agreed.

 

 

I guess its good either way. If he had hit the bull, I would know its me and my **** shooting, so room for improvement. As he is experiencing the same as me, there is clearly a major fault.........who knows what it is. It has to be barrel or crown. I'm not quite sure where to go with it at the moment. Yes, take it back, not fit for purpose etc. But you know what the answer will be, we'll send it off, we haven't heard back yet, another two weeks, he's away at the moment, bla bla.

 

I'm not really thinking this is the problem but what solvents are you using, this is one I did for a pal whos HMR was all over the shop!

 

It shot fine when I had finished!

 

Top right to left, then bottom left to right!

 

Wire brush scrub with solvent between each patch!

 

Crown thoroughly cleaned as well!

 

Your patches seem small in comparison!

Edited April 26, 2013 by Dekers

[turbo33]

Everything I have is small by comparison Dekers I'm using Hoppe's copper solvent, Phillips spray gun oil on the bronze brush.

Edited April 26, 2013 by turbo33

[Dekers]

Everything I have is small by comparison Dekers I'm using Hoppe's copper solvent.

 

 

No 9 is what I use, then last couple of runs with Express oil!

 

Get it back to the RFD and let us know the outcome!

 

[kenj]

I've been following this thread since it started and I'm sure it can't be the cleaning of the barrel. Bought new several years ago, my CZ452 HMR has only had a bore snake through it after every outing. Just a squirt of Bisley Gun Oil on the first brush and a pull through once. I recently took the trouble to set some targets with it, as I was hitting rabbits lower than aimed, about an inch at a 100 yards. A couple of test shots showed this up, a few clicks on both turrets and it was back to all shots through the 20 mm bull at 100 yards. I relieved my stock when I bought the CZ, as the barrel was touching the woodwork down one side, making sure a 1 mm thick card passed the length of the barrel and fitted the trigger kit. I've also suffered a bad batch of Remmingtons. I cannot fault this rifle now. Turbo's HMR has a serious problem and must go back.

[dadioles]

It would be interesting to know how near your scope turret adjustment is to the end stops.

If you wind the turret fully one way then count the number of turns as you wind it fully the other way and then return it half way you will be in the middle.

Do that for both turrets.

That should be your starting point for setting up a scope.

Looking through the bore is a good way to line things up initially.

I use my neighbours tv aerial to sight on for this.

Use shims, maybe cut from old photographic negatives, some prefer them cut from a coke tin, if the scope needs packing up a bit either at front or rear (never both) in order to sight in with the turrets still near their middle position.

It is surprising how many people use up nearly all the adjustment on their turrets, rather than using shims, to set up their scope.

You can buy offset and adjustable scope mounts but shimming is the traditional way. Don't be too Rambo when tightening things up as you could damage the scope, tight is good, too tight is bad, too loose is also bad.

[turbo33]

Its not a scope issue Dadioles. Here is a resume of what has been tried incase anyone misses anything.

 

Scopes:

Mamba lite 3-12x44 new

Mamba lite 4-16x44 new

Nikko Stirling 4-12x50 new

Plus one other, all fitted by centralising the turrets first and then working from there. The scope rings were fitted to the scope rail first and then the scope fitted after.

 

Mounts:

Sports match mounts

BKL Mounts

 

Ammo:

Batch 1 Hornaday 17grn x50

Batch 2 Remington 17grn x50

batch 3 Remington 17grn x50

Batch 4 Remington 17grn x 50

Batch 5 winchester 17grn x 100

Batch 6 winchester 17grn x150

 

Moderators

Sak

Wildcat Whisper

Moderators checked for tightness on barrel and clipping.

 

Stock

455 thumbhole

Boyds rimfire hunter, both free floating when on bipod, hand held, sandbag

Tested for free floating after rapid use and warm barrel

 

Tried when barrel fowled and not cleaned,

Tried when barrel cleaned with copper solvant, brushes, cloth on jag

 

Action to stock bolts checked for security, barrel to action grub screws checked for security.

 

Used by 3 different experienced shots, non of which could do better than a 3 inch spread in ideal conditions at 100 yds.

 

What haven't I covered? Its a rifle not the flight deck of the space shuttle

Edited April 27, 2013 by turbo33

[Paul223]

tried it with the mod off?

[turbo33]

tried it with the mod off?

 

TBH, after everything else, there's no point. Its probably the only thing I haven't tried, Its had two different mods on so with the mod off it would only prove something is wrong with the rifle, which there clearly is. Its now gone!!