STEEL SHOT-What you need to know

[Wildfowler12]

Just to make things a little more confusing, some manufacturers (many that proof guns outside of the UK) do not stamp the fleur de lys despite barrels being subjected to pressure tests beyond the HP Steel level.

 

For example, all modern Benelli's undergo a 1370bar burst test at the proof house in Italy, but most do not receive the fleur de lys stamp. I'm guessing the FDL is a British proof house thing?

[Big Mat]

Just to make things a little more confusing, some manufacturers (many that proof guns outside of the UK) do not stamp the fleur de lys despite barrels being subjected to pressure tests beyond the HP Steel level.

 

For example, all modern Benelli's undergo a 1370bar burst test at the proof house in Italy, but most do not receive the fleur de lys stamp. I'm guessing the FDL is a British proof house thing?

 

I told David of this a while back and suggested that the relevant BASC guidelines should be amended. To date i see nothing has been changed.

 

Remington stamp their guns with the fleur de lys so maybe its just the Italians who dont do it?

[kent]

I don't know as I don't have ,owt to do with the stuff, but is there possibly some Service Pressure (1050 bar) and Proof Pressure (1320 bar) confusion.

 

Proof is of course an over load test 1370 Bar is about double the pressure of a fairly pokey shell. If my maths is ok its around 19,870 PSI converted?What might be worthwhile is a simple system. Like class 1, 2,3,4 shells?

 

Class 1 use them in anything of suitable chambering, Class 4 Only in high level class tested. Still so much still hangs on gun condition and what class of proof was around when it passed through the proof house.

 

I am with the gunsmith that said " I should use it myself ". reasonable knowledge of soundness is far better than a stamp

[Tedward]

_{Hi All,}

_{I have a Berretta 303 with a half choke 76mm Magnum barrel, with KG 1.070 stamped on it. (which I think was the metric version of 4 tons/sq inch)}

_{It's of 1979 vintage, so pre-dates High Performance Steel proof regs. I'm totally confused with trying to relate this to modern specs as the means of measuring has changed, service/proof pressures differ, and CIP and SAMMI address the problem in a different manner.}

_{It's never going to have a fleur de lys on it, can anybody tell me what this proofing equates to now, and what would the honoured members advise me putting through it safely for both duck and geese.}

_{Cheers, Tedward.}

[wymberley]

_{Hi All,}

_{I have a Berretta 303 with a half choke 76mm Magnum barrel, with KG 1.070 stamped on it. (which I think was the metric version of 4 tons/sq inch)}

_{It's of 1979 vintage, so pre-dates High Performance Steel proof regs. I'm totally confused with trying to relate this to modern specs as the means of measuring has changed, service/proof pressures differ, and CIP and SAMMI address the problem in a different manner.}

_{It's never going to have a fleur de lys on it, can anybody tell me what this proofing equates to now, and what would the honoured members advise me putting through it safely for both duck and geese.}

_{Cheers, Tedward.}

Beretta being Italian, you may just find that the KG 1.070 refers to the barrel weight. The 'full stop' in the 1.070 is actually a decimal point.

 

Edit: I had to check, but please double check - I think the figure that you should be looking for is 1200 Kgs/cm2

Edited September 9, 2013 by wymberley

[Tedward]

Many thanks wymberley,

I did wonder about that, but on the digital kitchen scales the barrel came in at 1.030Kg.

The only indication apart from definitive proof marks, year of manufacture etc on the "flats" as it where, is "CAM76 Magnum" stamped on the barrel side.

"Cam76" being the chamber length (3in) and unfortunateley "Magnum" not being defined.

I'll do some more googling on Italian proof marks,

cheers, Tedward.

[wymberley]

The difference between the Italian proof marks of the 1979 vintage for 'standard' definitive and 'Magnum' or 'Superior' proof is that the former has one figure of a star set inside a gear (cog) type circle and the latter has two of these, both having the letters, 'PSF' stamped underneath.

[Tedward]

Hi again,

think I'm getting somewhere,

PSF one star is proofed tp 1020BAR for a working pressure of 900BAR,

and PSF two star is proofed to 1370BAR for a working pressure of 1200BAR.

 

From BASC website:

 

The descriptions and limits are set out by the International Proof Commission (CIP)

for 12 bore guns are:

High

Performance, 73 to 76mm chamber, 1050 BAR max average service pressure, 430mps max velocity, 15Ns max momentum.

 

so I guess I'm good to go with 3" High Performancs Steel cartridges.............

or am I missing something?

cheers, Tedward.

[wymberley]

Hi again,

think I'm getting somewhere,

PSF one star is proofed tp 1020BAR for a working pressure of 900BAR,

and PSF two star is proofed to 1370BAR for a working pressure of 1200BAR.

 

From BASC website:

 

The descriptions and limits are set out by the International Proof Commission (CIP)

for 12 bore guns are:

High

Performance, 73 to 76mm chamber, 1050 BAR max average service pressure, 430mps max velocity, 15Ns max momentum.

 

so I guess I'm good to go with 3" High Performancs Steel cartridges.............

or am I missing something?

cheers, Tedward.

That doesn't sound right to me. However, I'm not certain so please double check elsewhere. I'm doubtful because the difference between the service and proof pressures does not seem sufficient to be a meaningful test. Also it's a chalk and cheese situation as you're comparing something that was intended for lead shot many years ago with modern pressures designed to cater for the requirements of steel shot.

 

For example, the UK 12 bore 3" magnum service pressure of 4 tons/sq" (1954 Rulesof Proof) lead crusher system converted to the CIP copper crusher pressure gives 722 bar and similarly, the proof pressure converted is 1155 bar. For the standard 3" 3 1/2 tons/sq" the figures are 632 and 1011. It will be realised that the difference between these two sets are figures do give a meaningful proof test figure and that it is more than likely that your gun was not subjected to the 1370 bar test back in '79. Consequently, I would tend to make haste slowly, totally ignore anything that I've said excluding my final suggestion which is to seek professional advice.

 

Edit: Not withstanding the final sentence above, 1020 over 740 for standard and 1320(1370) 0ver 1050 for magnum(HP) would be more appropriate

Edited September 10, 2013 by wymberley

[Tedward]

Hi wymberley,

I'm currently awaiting clarification from BASC, - will keep the forum informed,

cheers, Tedward.

[Cosd]

Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke.

High Performance Steel cartridges should always be marked as such on the box and should only be fired through guns that have passed Steel Shot proof. These guns should be proved to at least 1320 bar, be stamped with "Steel Shot" and a have a Fleur de Lys proof mark to prove it).

If I am reading this correctly, you can use "standard steel" cartridges in a gun which doesn't have the Fleur de Lys symbol on it?

My hide gun, a Benelli 121 doesn't have this symbol and is fixed half choke, so can I get steel cartridges to put through it? If so which ones are available?

[wymberley]

 

Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar)

 

Spot on; this is exactly what David BASC said at Post #1. It will be seen that the proof pressure over the service pressure for the 1320 over 1050 is as the 930 over 740. I left the 1020 (as Tedward suggested) to indicate that this as a proof test pressure with a 900 service pressure did not make sense but would with a 740 service rating.

[motty]

I've used plenty of hp steel loads through my Silver pigeon Iv (not steel proofed) and it is absolutely fine. I know plenty of folk who have done the same with their non-proofed weapons.

Has anyone heard of any guns 'blowing up' due to using steel in a gun not proofed for it?

[wymberley]

I've used plenty of hp steel loads through my Silver pigeon Iv (not steel proofed) and it is absolutely fine. I know plenty of folk who have done the same with their non-proofed weapons.

Has anyone heard of any guns 'blowing up' due to using steel in a gun not proofed for it?

Whereas "blowing up" is always a possibility, the difference in proof/service pressures is such that unless you do something really, really stupid, it's unlikely. Using a cartridge such that you are relying on the difference between the two pressures for your safety simply qualifies as really stupid. Many would consider that a badly scored barrel or one with an irrepairable ring bulge (not that I'm suggesting you personally would or would not, just that some would) is similarly undesirable.

[David BASC]

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like cartridge is to be fired only through a gun that has passed steel shot proof (which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel) and the gun then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

 

A gun not so marked would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

 

David

[Cosd]

According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like cartridge is to be fired only through a gun that has passed steel shot proof (which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel) and the gun then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

 

A gun not so marked would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased.

 

David

 

 

Confused

I always thought you can't/shouldn't use steel shot in a gun that doesn't have the Fluer-de-Lys symbol. The initial posts suggests that "standard" steel cartridges can be used, and your last post says it's a risk....

 

Am I just being thick?

[David BASC]

Sorry, my last post refered to High Pressure steel not standard steel

 

David

[Cosd]

Thanks David

 

So if this isn't de-railing the thread too much, can one get "standard" steel cartridges which would be suitable for duck or geese? I appreciate that distances would have to be taken into consideration. If yes, which ones?

[wymberley]

 

 

Confused

I always thought you can't/shouldn't use steel shot in a gun that doesn't have the Fluer-de-Lys symbol. The initial posts suggests that "standard" steel cartridges can be used, and your last post says it's a risk....

 

Am I just being thick?

No, mate, you're not thick. The whole situation is confusing and it needs sorting sooner rather than later. If we are going to continue to be able to buy SAMMI rated kit here, then that mob should speak to the CIP mob, put the politics/profit, etc, to one side and devise a planet wide international standard which is then suitably broadcast through the shooting organisations.

 

Note that David was talking about HP steel when he mentioned the fleur-de Lys

 

Edit: Agh! too slow, I was typing away at my rant.

Edited September 10, 2013 by wymberley

[David BASC]

I would give Charles Bull a call at Just Cartridges, he sells loads of different shells http://www.justcartridges.com/

[Cosd]

I would give Charles Bull a call at Just Cartridges, he sells loads of different shells http://www.justcartridges.com/

 

 

 

They recommended Gamebore Game and Wet steel, 32g 4's in 70mm for duck but wouldn't recommend anything for geese.

 

Still a great bit of info and can now have a go on a new permision we picked up with a 5 acre lake on some ducks

 

Thanks David......

[Big Mat]

 

I would give Charles Bull a call at Just Cartridges, he sells loads of different shells http://www.justcartridges.com/

 

 

 

They recommended Gamebore Game and Wet steel, 32g 4's in 70mm for duck but wouldn't recommend anything for geese.

 

Still a great bit of info and can now have a go on a new permision we picked up with a 5 acre lake on some ducks

 

Thanks David......

 

 

Use bismuth 36gram BB for the geese, bit more expensive but if you don't shoot that many they'll do the job!

[David BASC]

Happy days!!

[Scully]

I've used plenty of hp steel loads through my Silver pigeon Iv (not steel proofed) and it is absolutely fine. I know plenty of folk who have done the same with their non-proofed weapons.

Has anyone heard of any guns 'blowing up' due to using steel in a gun not proofed for it?

I have done likewise with an old 101,choked 1/4 and 1/2,with the same results,and also have done so with my auto,fixed at 3/4. Again with the same results.Nothing from the latter has ever been 'pricked'!

The latter is no good for close in birds however as it renders them inedible.

[kent]

I've used plenty of hp steel loads through my Silver pigeon Iv (not steel proofed) and it is absolutely fine. I know plenty of folk who have done the same with their non-proofed weapons.

Has anyone heard of any guns 'blowing up' due to using steel in a gun not proofed for it?

 

No! this is a very good post, I am not awaiting a flood of "yes look at this" responses. There are of course many steel proof tested guns that might well fail proof if re-entered today and many non-steel proofed that might pass (though I think they don't except the latter now unless its been martially changed by bore size or chambering?).

One should always maintain a gun and check it remains basically fit for duty.