Baldrick Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Which gunsmith do you use, Pav? I just had another gun fitted by Jason Harris in Fram. His prices are probably higher than his competitors, but he did a faultless job. He also carries a huge range of 20-bore cartridges, which keeps me happy. I've met some Guns who use pieces that cost more than a decent car, but are oblivious to the simplistic benefits of gun fit. Grandpa's Holland that has a 15 3/4 length of pull, or a 20-bore with a cut-down children's stock. It always irritates me. It's such an easy and cheap thing to have corrected, particularly on a £10k gun. It's like driving a Porsche, with flat tyres. Idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 IMHO - It`s a shame that people who have shot with 12`s for years should think that they should change to a lighter gun and expect it to handle and kill like their old 12 did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 i shoot a 20 and i dont think i hit more or less runners than ayone else on game, i am confident that if i go pigeon shooting i will outshoot most 12 bore users with my 20, the only time i think that a 20 bore user is at a disadvanteg is on those long clays and i mean long, beyond 55yards clays i find are often only lightly chipped where as with a 12 you can still smoke them (and how many of us can say that they regulary shoot at 55yard plus pheasents regularly on there local shoots ). i find that the pheasents i shoot never run usually they are dead with a 20bore load, with a twelve i think it is more possible to wing the bird and for it to continue flying. people can say what they like about a 12 bore 28gram load being the same as a 20bore 28gram load, i think there is a difference, you have to be that much sharper to kill cleanly with a 20 than you do with a 12, i find that on those really long clays a 20 just wount hit them properly, with a twelve you can, but on pheasants if you hit it with a twenty it comes down, not alsways the same with a 12 i find. people may diasgree with this but this is my own opion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Balders I agree with you, but without screwing a friendship or creating an atmosphere just how do you tell a gent he needs lessons??? Easy...pavman you need lessons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Good one, Highlander, I should have taken that opportunity..... In fact the only time when I have felt my 20-bore set-up lacking, in recent years, is on the left-right crosser off the tower at High Lodge. That must be at least 50 yards out, and I have only ever broken it consistently with a 12-bore and 3/4 choke. I think the extra 2lb of weight on my B25 helps on that crosser. I don't see may 50+ yard pheasants in Norfolk and Suffolk, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted December 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Which gunsmith do you use, Pav? Richardsons at H-worth Balders I agree with you, but without screwing a friendship or creating an atmosphere just how do you tell a gent he needs lessons??? Easy...pavman you need lessons nea bad for jock (sorry henry) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Have never tried Richardsons, but keep hearing good things about it. Might have to shelve my gunsmithing promiscuity thoughts, and pay him a visit. Have always been happy with Trulocks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 people can say what they like about a 12 bore 28gram load being the same as a 20bore 28gram load, i think there is a difference, you have to be that much sharper to kill cleanly with a 20 than you do with a 12 If you use the same loads, shot sizes and chokes in a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge, you will achieve almost identical patterns and ranges. That is a fact according to the ballistic experts. When I first owned a 20 gauge, I was also having shooting lessons. The Instructor told me that its no coincidence that lighter gauge shotguns (.410, 28ga. and 20ga) have tighter chokes (where the chokes are fixed). I was also told to use one shot size above what I would normally use, if I had been shooting a 12 ga. The theory being, lighter load, tighter pattern and larger shot size, results in more accurate shooting being necessary and clean kills. All guns are a pleasure to use in the right circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 [if you use the same loads, shot sizes and chokes in a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge, you will achieve almost identical patterns and ranges. That is a fact according to the ballistic experts.] most people when they pattern a gun will use a pattern plate, a perfectly sensible idea, however if you think into it a little more,, a 28g 20bore load will have a larger shot string and a narrower pattern because of barrel size and choke compared to a 12, the 20 will also beacause of having a larger shot string will have more deformed pellets than a 12 and the pattern will start to "fade away" at 50 yards plus, not a something to worry about for most pheasants , however on clays this isobviously detremental, a longer shot string is more suited to a fast and erratic swing but a slower steadier more direct swing is better suited to a shorter shot string. if there were no difference in the range a patterns than why isnt digweed faulds etc using 20bores for sporting, im a fan of the 20 but there is definaatly a difference in patterns etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 All of the tests I referred to where done at 30 and 35 yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 All of the tests I referred to where done at 30 and 35 yards. I would say most fezant taken on our shoot are at around the sensible range 30-35 yards, due to getting up in front of the guns on walked up beet etc, this range still accounts for runners, and not just the longer ranges. I don’t dispute what the experts say that patterns are the same for a 20 and 12 up to 35 yards. However seeing the guys shoot with 12’s last year it seems ironic that we are now getting more runners with an uptake of 20’s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 One of the more logical reasons that the MOD changed to the 5.56mm calibre for infantry weapons was that troops could carry much more 5.56mm rounds in the same space, compared to the bulkier 7.62mm round. Using the same analogy, for a walked-up day I can fit 100 20-bore rounds in a cartridge bag that only holds 75 12-bore rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 watching the guys shoot phezzies las sat i picked up a empty cartridge out of the cartdridge bins at luch and i noted what load he guy had been using 28g 8's i thought these were way to small for pheasants then i looked at the others in there everything from 5's-8's it did also seem that the chap shooting 30grams 5's was also the guy who shoots everything dead in the air, the majority of cartridges wre clay shot sizes when i questioned a gun of his choice of cartridge he claimed 8's give you more pellets and therefore you have more pellts to hit the bird with. surely 1 size 5 pellet in the right place is bettr than a peppered bird with 8's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I agree with you Bobby. I use 6s in my 20 for pheasant, and 5s if it's late season or if there's a lot of higher-than-average birds. Certainly wouldn't use 8s. Why use a heavy load of small shot? Lots of recoil, lots of pricked birds....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I agree with you Bobby. I use 6s in my 20 for pheasant, and 5s if it's late season or if there's a lot of higher-than-average birds. Certainly wouldn't use 8s. Why use a heavy load of small shot? Lots of recoil, lots of pricked birds....... This is another very good point, I use 32 grms number 5 for both fezant, and in non tox for duck the combination of load and gun needs taking into account for the use, I must admit I have not asked what pellet size the guys are on, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Worth having a sneaky look at their empty cartridges, to see if they are using 20gram #9s, or something equally useless and anaemic? Chuck them a handful of Hull Sterling Game #6s, and see how they get on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Worth having a sneaky look at their empty cartridges, to see if they are using 20gram #9s, or something equally useless and anaemic? Chuck them a handful of Hull Sterling Game #6s, and see how they get on? Balders, how do you rate hull in the 12 gauge loads? your not the first to sing there praises, i use supreme game, hard hitting show stoppers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I get on best with Hull (I used to stick with Eley or WInchester). I use the Sovereign Fitasc 28g #7.5s at clays (usually High Lodge), and the arrse-kicking Sterling Game in a 32g #6 when I'm using my 12-bore. Both cartridges are belters. I really can't fault them. The other Hull load I like, for driven partridge or early pheasant, is Trulock & Harris's branded load, 'The Dennison'. It's a 28g fibre wad #6.5 load, very cheap, and seems slightly easier on the recoil than the Sterling Game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I've recently been using Hull Sterling Game 32g 5's for walked up pheasant, awesome cartridge. Richardsons is one of my favourite gunshops. Really friendly blokes and an aladins cave of wonderments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisNicholls Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I have recently switched over to Hull High Pheasant in 30gm No 6. So far I am very impressed, very hard hitting with little (noticeable) recoil. A top class load that I highly recommend, I can't see myself going back to Eley or Gamebore at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I have recently switched over to Hull High Pheasant in 30gm No 6. So far I am very impressed, very hard hitting with little (noticeable) recoil. A top class load that I highly recommend, I can't see myself going back to Eley or Gamebore at the moment. Agreed Chris. I've shot my way through 500 High Pheasant over the last 2 years. My local dealer had run out when I was stocking up, hence the switch Sterling Game. Both I think use a PDP wad which is like a plastic wad that bio-degrades. Both are excellent. the only downside is the price but I don't mind paying for a top quality product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisNicholls Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Both I think use a PDP wad which is like a plastic wad that bio-degrades. Both are excellent. the only downside is the price but I don't mind paying for a top quality product. I chose the fibre wad version, I prefer to use fibre if at all possible. I shoot these through a side by side choked improved and quarter and have not noticed any problems with pattern density, not that you would just by shooting them but I have had no runners, this can be an indication of 'iffy' patterns, so far everything I have hit has been very dead in the air. I used them last week on a shoot on the downs and accounted for some pretty tall birds. The price does have the ouch factor, but not too important for something that works so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 You get what you pay for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Agreed Sterling game are around £167.00 per thousand and High Pheasant £160.I think the powder, primer, case, wad and shot are pretty much the same. Top quality and the best components. The main difference is the SG are 32g and the HP 30g. I've found you either get a clean kill or a complete miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I find the recoil on the 12 and 20-bore Hull loads much less than the equivalent Gamebore/Express/Eley loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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