HDAV Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 next time i am near a pattern plate i'll give it a go (hopefully be too hungover on sunday...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 too much gun speed on a now slowing/dropping target and a miss over the top! REMEDY adopt a higher gun hold (foot to 18inches above trap house to start) and adopt an even higher visual hold.DON'T move untill you see the target CLEARLY, now execute a CONTROLLED SMOOTH movement to the target. Trust me you wont believe just how SLOWLY you will move in order to kill the target EARLIER than ever. Best of luck! Good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Sorry but I think you have that wrong. The whole idea of a trap gun is to shoot high enough so that a target presentation such as in DTL can be hit/missed with the first barrel and kept in view , thus aiding a second barrel shot if necessary without the shooter having to wait for the target to appear if missed.Many,many trap guns print patterns around 70/30 or even 80/20. Barrel geometery also plays a part. But at the end of the day it only matters where a gun shoots for it's owner of course, my trap gun is unlikely to shoot to the same point of aim for others as it does for me, just because a gun is high in the comb for a particular shooter does not mean that it WILL shoot high. Regards Remmyman All depends on what people mean by high though doesn't it ? A Sporter is meant to shoot a little high ! Also depends a whole lot on where and how fast you shoot DTL targets, I agree Trap guns shoot higher in relation to some sporters but when people say high you sometimes get the feeling they think you can place the rib 5" under a floater at distance and smoke it, that won't happen without an American or specifically requested gun over here. It's certainly less desirable to have a top barrel that shoots high since you're invariably shooting missed first barrel targets with less control, more quickly and of course the target has levelled out by then. The adjustable comb may well give minute changes in POI but in my opinion it's main advantage is allowing you to dial in your preferred sight picture and attain small cast changes without bending the stock. The only way to raise POI in a meaningful way without loosing crucial cheek/butt/shoulder comfort is to buy a gun meant to shoot high and that is achieved in the drawing room by a combination of things such as the action/barrel geometry and rib angle. Edited October 17, 2013 by Hamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) If the barrels and top rib are parallel then no gun can shoot high. The only way a gun can shoot high - leaving aside comb height - is if the barrels converge - in which case one barrel will shoot higher - or if the top rib is ramped downwards towards the muzzle. All talk of trap guns - leaving aside those mentioned (barrel convergence, ramped rib and higher comb) - the first two are rare, the latter more common - trap guns shoot no higher than sporters. Higher combs affect different shooters. To say such guns shoot high is incorrect. Edited October 17, 2013 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 All depends on what people mean by high though doesn't it ? A Sporter is meant to shoot a little high ! Also depends a whole lot on where and how fast you shoot DTL targets, I agree Trap guns shoot higher in relation to some sporters but when people say high you sometimes get the feeling they think you can place the rib 5" under a floater at distance and smoke it, that won't happen without an American or specifically requested gun over here. It's certainly less desirable to have a top barrel that shoots high since you're invariably shooting missed first barrel targets with less control, more quickly and of course the target has levelled out by then. The adjustable comb may well give minute changes in POI but in my opinion it's main advantage is allowing you to dial in your preferred sight picture and attain small cast changes without bending the stock. The only way to raise POI in a meaningful way without loosing crucial cheek/butt/shoulder comfort is to buy a gun meant to shoot high and that is achieved in the drawing room by a combination of things such as the action/barrel geometry and rib angle. I defined 'high' in terms of how the guntrade define it. Game and sporting guns are said to be on the money when they print patterns around the 60/40 mark, anything higher, say 70/30 and above are then deemed high,FACT. The only reason game and sporting guns need to shoot a pattern more than 50/50 is so that the shooter can keep the target in view above the barrel,otherwise he would have tgo obscure it on any shot other than a dropping bird! Please re-read my post ,I did correctly mention barrel geometry, and the targets/disciplines that gave rise to the concept of 'Trapguns' fullstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 If the barrels and top rib are parallel then no gun can shoot high. The only way a gun can shoot high - leaving aside comb height - is if the barrels converge - in which case one barrel will shoot higher - or if the top rib is ramped downwards towards the muzzle. All talk of trap guns - leaving aside those mentioned (barrel convergence, ramped rib and higher comb) - the first two are rare, the latter more common - trap guns shoot no higher than sporters. Higher combs affect different shooters. To say such guns shoot high is incorrect. You stated in an earlier post that to your mind 99% of trap guns shoot to the same point of aim as a sporter. As already discussed and agreed upon, a 'purpose built' trap gun IE conceived and built from the factory to print patterns 70/30 and above would be said to be shooting 'high' by anyone within the guntrade who knew what they were talking about. All things being equall, rib, higher comb and barrel geometry, a trapgun WILL shoot to a higher point of aim for the vast majority of people,FACT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 You stated in an earlier post that to your mind 99% of trap guns shoot to the same point of aim as a sporter. As already discussed and agreed upon, a 'purpose built' trap gun IE conceived and built from the factory to print patterns 70/30 and above would be said to be shooting 'high' by anyone within the guntrade who knew what they were talking about. All things being equall, rib, higher comb and barrel geometry, a trapgun WILL shoot to a higher point of aim for the vast majority of people,FACT. No it won't, not to the extent of being called FACT in capital letters anyways. There are thousands of people who shoot Trap guns from various makers that shoot no more than a little high as intended for sporters/skeet guns in general. One mans 60/40 is another's 70/30 depending on too many variables such as fit, style of shooting, tempo etc, the two are too close to call. There are plenty in the trade who don't know what they're talking about. The point myself and Gordon R are making is that it is a misnomer to assume Trap means high and Sporter means flat, I do agree with you in essence that there comes a point at which we have to collectively call something a high shooter, just not so convinced that it is as black and white as 70/30 V 60/40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 No it won't, not to the extent of being called FACT in capital letters anyways. There are thousands of people who shoot Trap guns from various makers that shoot no more than a little high as intended for sporters/skeet guns in general. One mans 60/40 is another's 70/30 depending on too many variables such as fit, style of shooting, tempo etc, the two are too close to call. There are plenty in the trade who don't know what they're talking about. The point myself and Gordon R are making is that it is a misnomer to assume Trap means high and Sporter means flat, I do agree with you in essence that there comes a point at which we have to collectively call something a high shooter, just not so convinced that it is as black and white as 70/30 V 60/40. I did say '...who knows what they are talking about' . It's quite apparent that you are splitting hairs as regards the definition of 'high shooting' in relation to the centre of pattern when using a trap gun.I have already agreed with you and Gordon R that not ALL Trapgun/shooter combinations will shoot any different to same shooter/sporter combo. But as an accepted principle in 'gunfit and fit for purpose gun/discipline ideals' the champions/top shots in domestic and international trap use Trapguns that shoot considerably higher than an equivalent sporter would, and that my friend is a FACT. As regards the variables you mention, all of those will only be exaggerated/exacerbated when using a trap gun, FACT. Regards Remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 So almost back on topic if I am shooting over the top with a sporter will a trap styled gun help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 So almost back on topic if I am shooting over the top with a sporter will a trap styled gun help? I'd say a decent coach would need to watch you shoot, very unusual to be consistently over the top of most clays with a sporter, it may not be the gun as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 remmyman - it give your case more credibility if you stopped repeating the word "FACT", when it clearly isn't a fact. It is your opinion, which I believe is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 HDAV - I agree with Hamster. Normal sporters have lower combs than a trap gun, if you are shooting over the top, it sounds like your comb is too high. I would be seeking some advice before changing anything. If the comb is too high, it can easily be lowered, but that devalues the gun. Making the comb adjustable normally lowers the comb, as the cut takes a slice out of the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I don't think comb is too high but I may have been lifting my head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 remmyman - it give your case more credibility if you stopped repeating the word "FACT", when it clearly isn't a fact. It is your opinion, which I believe is incorrect. We are just going to have to disagree on this Gordon R. I have shot with, mixed with,coached and been coached by some of the best game and clay shots that this country has ever produced. They all understand how gunfit works and its 'real world' effect on POI, perceived recoil and control. My opinion is in common with their's so we must all be wrong and bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge!. Mind you judging by post 68 I think the jury is still out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 remmyman - I am glad you bow to my superior wisdom - because you are wrong - and the rest of them if they agree with you.No need for the sarcasm - it doesn't make you look very bright - far from it. :whistling: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmyman Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 remmyman - I am glad you bow to my superior wisdom - because you are wrong - and the rest of them if they agree with you. No need for the sarcasm - it doesn't make you look very bright - far from it. :whistling: Bright enough not to offer this pearl of wisdom 'I would imagine that 99% of trap guns are set up to shoot as flat as any sporter.' Regards Remmyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 So almost back on topic if I am shooting over the top with a sporter will a trap styled gun help? As they say, see a coach and have them watch you shoot, the chances are you are head-lifting FACT [sorry, just kidding] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) remmyman - grow up and stop boasting about coaching some of the best shots this country has ever produced. :lol: FACT. Dunkfield - sorry to nick your line. Edited October 17, 2013 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornfree Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 a good trick to make a gun shoot lower is to put a spacer under the front bead.now some people will say they never look at the bead and you should not but you see it in your peripheral vision and it will lower the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) So what about facts on the DT10 worth it or not, good or bad, new or old. Best get the DT11 not sold so well and might get a good deal on one for not a lot more than a mint DT10. Figgy Edited October 17, 2013 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Figgy - now that sounds a bit more sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 so did he buy the dt10.if not I may have a mint 11 next week for sale 32 inch only shot 300 carts one of the newer models,at a good price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 so did he buy the dt10. I think he got bored reading through all this tripe and took up basket weaving instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMMER BURT Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 well i did manage 4 cans of bud and a large amount of popcorn reading the whole tread very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Who would have thought advice on a DT10 would turn into a popcorn thread. What's wrong with your DT11 to be selling after 300 carts? Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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