bostonmick Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 600 adult deaths a week 300 children injured a week.the ammount of guns is equall to the population and people buy their children a rifle for their fifth birthday.and then allow that rifle to not only be accessible to the child but left loaded..gun control is out of control based on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 04:11, Steppenwolf said: What a sad piece of propaganda this little documentary is. Dutch guy going to America thinking he can tell them what to teach kids or not, somehow scared of inanimate objects sitting on racks in a gun shop. PLus he is wrong when he says many times:"stuff like this in Holland is not allowed". Last I heard guns are lawfull to posess in Holland, albeit highly restricted but not illegal. Exactly. Another Piers Morgan in the making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 04:11, Steppenwolf said: What a sad piece of propaganda this little documentary is. Dutch guy going to America thinking he can tell them what to teach kids or not, somehow scared of inanimate objects sitting on racks in a gun shop. PLus he is wrong when he says many times:"stuff like this in Holland is not allowed". Last I heard guns are lawfull to posess in Holland, albeit highly restricted but not illegal. I watched the video twice but failed to see where he was telling anyone how to behave.i believe that when he said this would not be allowed in his country he was talking about the type of weapons as many americans have weapons that our army would be proud of.for hunting.if you cannot see anything wrong in giving a baby 5 year old a rifle and then leaving it so he can get to it and above all loaded.where is the supervision and education in that.only in America.8 children a day die from gunshot 300 a week injured in the same way and 600 adults a week die.now I do not care how many people live there these figures are bad anywhere.i believe strongly in peoples rights to hold arms but I am sure glad we have not adopted the American way on this issue.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) On 27/02/2014 at 21:52, Liamey said: Sometimes restrictions can go too far. Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely tragic that anyone loses their life, no everyday matter what the cause. The nanny state with its restrictions, a massive knee jerk reaction to appease the uninformed and ignorant has not done anything to stem the tide of violence. Every day in the papers you read about another victim of knife violence etc, or one punch knockouts, whilst denying responsible shooters a very respectable and enjoyable pastime - look at the handgun ban for example. I would agree with everything in moderation however. My own child received her own rifle at age 9 , late by some standards, early by others. However, it was right for my family. I trust my daughter as she is very sensible, however would I let her out with her rifle unsupervised - absolutely no way. Not even when she is 10, 11, 12 and on and on. As a responsible parent the only time she will be allowed out of my sight when shooting is when she is old enough to buy her own firearms - by then I will have more worrying things to think about with boyfriends etc. some parents are just idiots and do not deserve children period. Responsible gun ownership stars from instilling gun safety each and every time a firearm is to be used, muzzle direction etc etc. To leave a loaded firearm hanging around the house is just too silly. Some people have good reason to, being in the woods etc, but with children around I would say this is an absolute no. Unlike the rifles, children are not miniature versions of adults. - they are children, and tend not to think through consequences of their actions - all part of being a kid right? By the same token a responsible adult should not necessarily be hindered by the state and told what they can or cannot own. Yes there has to be limits and background checks, but banning handguns in the UK was just ignorant of the politicians. Sure the victims families may think different but I do not hear about a ban on vehicles, knives etc. just be very careful about submitting to such restrictions as once taken away these things tend to be very hard if not impossible to get back. Common sense and adhering to safety rules can go a long way in any sport, in making it fun and enjoyable for all, not matter what the age, of course with some exceptions . Remember the shooting of the 2 police ladies in Manchester? Handgrenade and Glock are banned in this country, killer still had them, because he is a criminal and don`t give a s.... about the law. Is the ban working? Edited February 28, 2014 by londonercsecse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingo15 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Having watched the video again. Tragic about the baby getting shot by the 5 year old brother. Why was it still loaded. Why was he allowed access to it alone. As previous posts have said is it parenting skills at fault yes I would say so personally. As the gun shop owner used the corny phrase guns dont kill people, people kill people. However much its overused its true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 In principle I totally agree with the system in the USA, in practise in needs a reality check. " I need my gun any time of the day or night, so I don't want to put it in a cabinet as in an emergency it would take too long to access " But do you need it loaded where a child can pick it up and shoot someone ? " I have a right to an automatic weapon in the right to bare arms " Why ? No hunter needs such a gun. I lost patience with them when a guy from the NRA would not agree that securing a gun was a good idea. Their system is antiquated due to the advancement in guns since the Constitution and I wonder what would be the result of a National referendum on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Scholl Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 My father got me a Winchester Model 370 in 20 gauge for my 12th birthday. When I was 13, he let me have full access to the gun and shells. I turned out alright, then again I was never stupid enough to let my friends find and play with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 19:34, Dr_Scholl said: My father got me a Winchester Model 370 in 20 gauge for my 12th birthday. When I was 13, he let me have full access to the gun and shells. I turned out alright, then again I was never stupid enough to let my friends find and play with it. similar story my grandson was not allowed near guns until he was 12 then he was given his own to keep in cabinet at 15.he is safe.just wish I could take the credit for him being such a good shot. 5 years old is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Scholl Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 19:40, bostonmick said: similar story my grandson was not allowed near guns until he was 12 then he was given his own to keep in cabinet at 15.he is safe.just wish I could take the credit for him being such a good shot. 5 years old is ridiculous. Agreed. Around 10 is a good age to start IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 You cannot legislate against stupid. I have no doubt based on some expericene that the majority are very careful with guns. However like this country there are always stupid parents who put there children at risk. Look at our issues lately with dog attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 19:14, pontbeck said: In principle I totally agree with the system in the USA, in practise in needs a reality check. " I need my gun any time of the day or night, so I don't want to put it in a cabinet as in an emergency it would take too long to access " But do you need it loaded where a child can pick it up and shoot someone ? " I have a right to an automatic weapon in the right to bare arms " Why ? No hunter needs such a gun. I lost patience with them when a guy from the NRA would not agree that securing a gun was a good idea. Their system is antiquated due to the advancement in guns since the Constitution and I wonder what would be the result of a National referendum on the subject. The issue with firearms for self defence is that they are useless as such if locked away, just as they are if left unattended on the kitchen table. If a dedicated self defence weapon isn't within reach at all times then it isn't a weapon of self defence. I do however, fail to see why firearms used for hunting should be left loaded and/ or unattended at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossberg-operator Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 On 28/02/2014 at 19:14, pontbeck said: In principle I totally agree with the system in the USA, in practise in needs a reality check. " I need my gun any time of the day or night, so I don't want to put it in a cabinet as in an emergency it would take too long to access " But do you need it loaded where a child can pick it up and shoot someone ? " I have a right to an automatic weapon in the right to bare arms " Why ? No hunter needs such a gun. I lost patience with them when a guy from the NRA would not agree that securing a gun was a good idea. Their system is antiquated due to the advancement in guns since the Constitution and I wonder what would be the result of a National referendum on the subject. ShotLock Vault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickB65 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 The gun law in the USA may not make sense to us but given the type of countryside they have, the predators they have and the history of the land then it does make sense that some guns are more freely available. I still can not get my head around the need for military grade weapons for hunting or even self defence but a shotgun or small handgun makes sense. When our children learn to ride bikes or venture our for the first time on their own we spend time with them teaching them what is right and what is wrong. Most children will be safe but there will be the odd occasions when mistakes are made or a parent is not so thorough. This is when accidents happen and sadly children die. The same goes for the USA and guns with kids. The kids are going to see them so why make them something special or mysterious. Teach them what they do, how they work and how to handle them and some kids will not be interested, some bored and others keen to learn more. Hide them, make them special or mysterious and virtually every kid will want one or want to experience them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 There is a lot of confusion about gun laws in the states, it is not as free as many think. they don't for instance have military grade weapons, at least not without clearance from the ATF, and theses are restricted to those registered before 1986. plenty of States have heavily restricted if not tried to ban semi automatic full bore rifles and handguns. A lot of firearms owners keep their guns locked up part from a pistol for protection. I like most people would not leave kids in a room unsupervised with a hot iron in reach, but the world is full of idiots who would. I don't suppose many Americans would leave there kids in control of a gun unsupervised. The constitution is not out of date, it is as relevant now as it was when it was written, human nature does not change, history repeats itself. all great democracy's eventually fail as people give up freedom for security - until they have neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) On 28/02/2014 at 17:19, bostonmick said: I watched the video twice but failed to see where he was telling anyone how to behave.i believe that when he said this would not be allowed in his country he was talking about the type of weapons as many americans have weapons that our army would be proud of. Yes, the way he was questioning the kids as in: "should you be using this rifle for clay shooting?" "Should you know where it's kept", "aren't you too young to operate guns". He was undermining them and making them out to be some snooty noed kids, when it was clear they knew what they were doing with the guns they had, carried them safely, only loaded them on the firing point. The guns the amercan range guy was showing the dutch presenter were rifles and pistols all SEMIAUTOMATIC. There were no NFA items there. All those guns would be legal in Holland! Watch at 9:33. We don't have these weapons in the Netherlands that is what he says. He might be surprised, probably hasn't ben bothered to go or inquire about a local gunshop/range in the Netherlands. Edited March 1, 2014 by Steppenwolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Oh look. 5 minutes of google. Dutch gun shop. Some nice pistols for sale as well http://www.graziani.nl/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=122&Itemid=1 Moron reporter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 On 01/03/2014 at 15:56, Steppenwolf said: Oh look. 5 minutes of google. Dutch gun shop. Some nice pistols for sale as well http://www.graziani.nl/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=122&Itemid=1 Moron reporter! Around 50 thousand incidents a year mostly deaths tells a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) I was talking about the Dutch reporter's ignorant comment. if you wan tto talk about gun crime in the uSA that is another matter. Plus laws should not be made up based on risk but on the matter of whether its infringing a god given right, otherwise we would have banned cars, medicines and fatty foods long ago. Edited March 1, 2014 by Steppenwolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 From what I understand of it the third amendment that allows them to have guns is there not really to allow people to have guns to play with or shoot for food but it was there to guarantee that the government can be held to account by the people if they do not do what the people want where as in the UK our government can do whatever they choose and as the people have little access to guns and non to automatic weapons we can do nothing to stop them all that we can do is vote but even in that we have no choice as they are all much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 On 01/03/2014 at 19:40, Steppenwolf said: I was talking about the Dutch reporter's ignorant comment. if you wan tto talk about gun crime in the uSA that is another matter. Plus laws should not be made up based on risk but on the matter of whether its infringing a god given right, otherwise we would have banned cars, medicines and fatty foods long ago. I am not talking about gun crime or taking away anyones right to have a gun for sport or pleasure.i don't think it was god who gave them or us the right to own a gun or shoot people.the point that the video made to me was nothing to do with gun crime just the careless attitude of some that think it is a good thing to let babies handle lethal weapons this combination is always going to end in disaster.in America it is possible to buy an assault rifle.machine guns and for what hunting self defence.i love to shoot but if you love guns to the point that you hold the usa as the pinnacle then I am sorry but you really need a reality check.our gun laws may seem a little harsh for some of you but I wonder how many lives might have been saved if the same applied to the americans.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallshort Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) On 28/02/2014 at 19:14, pontbeck said: In principle I totally agree with the system in the USA, in practise in needs a reality check. " I need my gun any time of the day or night, so I don't want to put it in a cabinet as in an emergency it would take too long to access " But do you need it loaded where a child can pick it up and shoot someone ? " I have a right to an automatic weapon in the right to bare arms " Why ? No hunter needs such a gun. I lost patience with them when a guy from the NRA would not agree that securing a gun was a good idea. Their system is antiquated due to the advancement in guns since the Constitution and I wonder what would be the result of a National referendum on the subject. Completly agree if I lived in the US and thought I needed a fire arm for home defense I would have a small low calibre pistol locked under my bed where no little hands could access it. The NRA's idea of home defense is an AR-15 assult rifle which when fired in you average American house is more likely to go through walls and hit the people you are suppose to protect and its not really something you can put under your pillow is it? But then Im not American so I would never be pompous enough to force my opinion on them like Piers Morgan does. It obvious that their relationship with firearms is very different from ours, guns in the UK have always been treated with a small amount of fear among the general population with only a small minority (us) owning them for hunting, sporting or working puposes. In the US guns are and always have been a very basic right for every citizen and as much as this might seem alien to us its always been normal to them and as with any rights if others try and take them off you then you tend to react badly to it. Also dont forget firms like Colt have always viewed the population of the US as its biggest market with more sales of guns such as the AR-15 to normal people in America than to most of its overseas and military contracts which it something European firms like Enfield and Mauser have never done, so there will always be big, powerful and well funded support to stop any restriction to gun ownership in the US....hasnt Piers Morgan just lost his job on CNN? Edited March 2, 2014 by Tallshort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 On 01/03/2014 at 23:16, bostonmick said: I am not talking about gun crime or taking away anyones right to have a gun for sport or pleasure.i don't think it was god who gave them or us the right to own a gun or shoot people.the point that the video made to me was nothing to do with gun crime just the careless attitude of some that think it is a good thing to let babies handle lethal weapons this combination is always going to end in disaster.in America it is possible to buy an assault rifle.machine guns and for what hunting self defence.i love to shoot but if you love guns to the point that you hold the usa as the pinnacle then I am sorry but you really need a reality check.our gun laws may seem a little harsh for some of you but I wonder how many lives might have been saved if the same applied to the americans.atb On 02/03/2014 at 00:18, Tallshort said: Completly agree if I lived in the US and thought I needed a fire arm for home defense I would have a small low calibre pistol locked under my bed where no little hands could access it. The NRA's idea of home defense is an AR-15 assult rifle which when fired in you average American house is more likely to go through walls and hit the people you are suppose to protect and its not really something you can put under your pillow is it? But then Im not American so I would never be pompous enough to force my opinion on them like Piers Morgan does. It obvious that their relationship with firearms is very different from ours, guns in the UK have always been treated with a small amount of fear among the general population with only a small minority (us) owning them for hunting, sporting or working puposes. In the US guns are and always have been a very basic right for every citizen and as much as this might seem alien to us its always been normal to them and as with any rights if others try and take them off you then you tend to react badly to it. Also dont forget firms like Colt have always viewed the population of the US as its biggest market with more sales of guns such as the AR-15 to normal people in America than to most of its overseas and military contracts which it something European firms like Enfield and Mauser have never done, so there will always be big, powerful and well funded support to stop any restriction to gun ownership in the US....hasnt Piers Morgan just lost his job on CNN? As I have already stated assault rifles(fully automatic) are strictly controlled. Since when did the NRA sate that Ar15 were required for home defence, they are a knowledgeable organisation they would fully know that a .223 fired in most USA homes would be reckless. Why continue to repeat the same incorrect rehetoric? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) On 01/03/2014 at 23:16, bostonmick said: On 01/03/2014 at 23:16, bostonmick said: I am not talking about gun crime or taking away anyones right to have a gun for sport or pleasure.i don't think it was god who gave them or us the right to own a gun or shoot people.the point that the video made to me was nothing to do with gun crime just the careless attitude of some that think it is a good thing to let babies handle lethal weapons this combination is always going to end in disaster.in America it is possible to buy an assault rifle.machine guns and for what hunting self defence.i love to shoot but if you love guns to the point that you hold the usa as the pinnacle then I am sorry but you really need a reality check.our gun laws may seem a little harsh for some of you but I wonder how many lives might have been saved if the same applied to the americans.atb I'm not really following your train of thought here. You say you're 'not talking about gun crime or taking away anyones right to have a gun for sport or pleasure', then state that 'our gun laws may seem a little harsh for some of you but I wonder how many lives might have been saved if the same applied to the Americans'. ! We have some of the strictest firearms laws in Europe but people still get killed by people with legally owned firearms. If you want to apply our laws to the Americans then I think you're on to a bad premise there; there are a lot of people in Cumbria who would still be alive today if we weren't allowed double ejector shotguns (Bird), another two on the East coast (Atherton) and another two just the other week down South. All legally owned shotguns. What point are you trying to make? The video at the top of this thread may have been issued with regards to American gun control from the point of view and for the benefit of the anti gun brigade, but the subject is clearly about unsupervised access to legitimately owned firearms, and the answer is simplicity itself . Unless the firearm is used for personal defence then it should be kept unloaded and secure from unsupervised access. How many American kids die each year from ingestion of prescription drugs as a result of unsupervised access? If it's 100 then it proves my point, if it's 100,000 then again, it proves my point. It's not about firearms,it's about feckless adults. It's not rocket science. Edited March 2, 2014 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 On 02/03/2014 at 08:03, Scully said: I'm not really following your train of thought here. You say you're 'not talking about gun crime or taking away anyones right to have a gun for sport or pleasure', then state that 'our gun laws may seem a little harsh for some of you but I wonder how many lives might have been saved if the same applied to the Americans'. ! We have some of the strictest firearms laws in Europe but people still get killed by people with legally owned firearms. If you want to apply our laws to the Americans then I think you're on to a bad premise there; there are a lot of people in Cumbria who would still be alive today if we weren't allowed double ejector shotguns (Bird), another two on the East coast (Atherton) and another two just the other week down South. All legally owned shotguns. What point are you trying to make? The video at the top of this thread may have been issued with regards to American gun control from the point of view and for the benefit of the anti gun brigade, but the subject is clearly about unsupervised access to legitimately owned firearms, and the answer is simplicity itself . Unless the firearm is used for personal defence then it should be kept unloaded and secure from unsupervised access. How many American kids die each year from ingestion of prescription drugs as a result of unsupervised access? If it's 100 then it proves my point, if it's 100,000 then again, it proves my point. It's not about firearms,it's about feckless adults. It's not rocket science. the simple point is in the uk guns must be licked away and access denied to others yet in America a gun can be left in any room in the house unsecured regardless of who is there.i would doubt there is many guns there that would be described as illegal as it is so easy to obtain one.forget the 32 thousand deaths of adults as they are most likely down to other adults take the figure of 15 thousand child deaths or injuries a year surely you cannot think that is a statistic that should be acceptable.do you think that children and guns are a good mix.we are talking about a country where you have to be 21 to drink alcohol and in some places it is banned altogether.yet they manufacture rifles for children that have only just become of age to start school.i would say that due to the number of accidents there then the adults need to be taught before they teach the kids.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 On 02/03/2014 at 08:39, bostonmick said: the simple point is in the uk guns must be licked away and access denied to others yet in America a gun can be left in any room in the house unsecured regardless of who is there.i would doubt there is many guns there that would be described as illegal as it is so easy to obtain one.forget the 32 thousand deaths of adults as they are most likely down to other adults take the figure of 15 thousand child deaths or injuries a year surely you cannot think that is a statistic that should be acceptable.do you think that children and guns are a good mix.we are talking about a country where you have to be 21 to drink alcohol and in some places it is banned altogether.yet they manufacture rifles for children that have only just become of age to start school.i would say that due to the number of accidents there then the adults need to be taught before they teach the kids.atb Strang old world. I grew up in a house where rifles and shotguns were kept behind the back door and the ammo on a nearby shelf. My siblings and I were taught that we were not to touch them and we didn't, just like we didn't put our fingers in the fire, kick our father, play with kitchen knives or anything else we were told not to do. Exactly the same when my children were growing up and probably every other house in the county, guns were, as the norm, kept behind the door. Not much different to the USA of today. It's all down to education and upbringing, and has nothing to do with gun laws, licensing or control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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