Cosd Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Hi guys I think I've reached the point where I need to go to a professional trainer to take my Portugese Pointer. He's at a stage where he is very head strong and I can't seem to take the next step in his training. I know the problem is me rather than the dog and my limitations and experience in training a gun dog let alone a HPR. The dog has a very natural instinct to hunt so I don't want to mess up his chances to become a decent gun dog plus I want nothing more than for him to become my shooting buddy. I live in Enfield, can anyone recommend any good trainers whom I can go to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 A long way for you but perhaps one of if not the best HPR trainers in the country . Rory Major near Horncastle lincs A very nice chap too , my lab is currently with him . http://www.bryantscroftgundogs.co.uk/ He also has some content on youtube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 The first thing i would say is do u know exactly wot u want ur dog to do? Not just be a 'gundog' wot aspects do u want it to do, as be hard for a trainer to help u unless u have a clear idea exactly wot u want and expect of a dog Fenboy will be right about rory (his dvd is very good too) Is Berkshire near u? (my english georaphy is pants) Think Alan ? (cannae mind his last name) has west berkshire gundogs he trains GWP's and runs them in trials and does training classes Andy cullen would also be well worth a trip but he is up above newcastle now Is there no HPR clubs near u? Check the kc site might have hpr clubs that run FT's quite often they also running training classes, GSP club is usually pretty good at that sort of thing around the country Wot age is ur PP now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 He has just turned a year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) U could also try more 'normal' dog trainers, althou not all/many wil be interrested. Despite training with quite a few hpr trainers at various training things some of the best advice i have had for my gwp was off a mate who is very good pro spaniel trainer, and if i need any more advice he would be my first port of call rather than an hpr trainer Like he said a dog is still a dog albeit not like ur more normal breeds. How's ur mates dog gettin on? Was it not about the same age? Can he not offer any advice? As he will know the breed. Hpr's can be hard work at times to say the least Just got to stick in and keep putting the work in, if u get the basics right hopefully the rest should follow eventually. All be worth it in the end Edited March 3, 2014 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Get Kent on here to tell you what to do, he knows everything about everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 U could also try more 'normal' dog trainers, althou not all/many wil be interrested. Despite training with quite a few hpr trainers at various training things some of the best advice i have had for my gwp was off a mate who is very good pro spaniel trainer, and if i need any more advice he would be my first port of call rather than an hpr trainer Like he said a dog is still a dog albeit not like ur more normal breeds. How's ur mates dog gettin on? Was it not about the same age? Can he not offer any advice? As he will know the breed. Hpr's can be hard work at times to say the least Just got to stick in and keep putting the work in, if u get the basics right hopefully the rest should follow eventually. All be worth it in the end Highbird70, he has one too and yes we are in regular contact and talk about them quite a bit. His dog is a couple of months older and more advanced to mine; There are a few factors which I'm guessing contribute to that, he has more experience than I do and has had gun dogs in the past, his dog is female and by all accounts less head strong than my male, and also he is the only one involved with the dog at home where as I have the wife and two older daughters who take him for walks ect. I have a few people I can lean on for advice, but I think we need to attend classes together so we both learn. If anyone can recomend any training DVD's that would also be appreciated. I have just had a response from Helga Edmonson, she owns the very well renowned Cookrise Pointers; Helga bought my dogs brother and both dogs came into the country together. Their traits sound very similar (hers is also a male) so in a way it is a relief that I'm not on my own or I haven't messed the dog up. She is advising that I find a German pointer trainer if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Get Kent on here to tell you what to do, he knows everything about everything. No just a little more helpfull than others ( I can live with the toes on which I might tread at times) . As already posted go to Rory Major at Bryantscroft, its not going to be an easy ride as many said at the start of your adventure and you need the dog in the right hands. As regards Rory he is as good as it gets on HPRs, if you want results and honesty get up there soon as I don't know if he will be so interested the older and more mature it gets. I shouldn't try a general gundog person with such an unknown dog although closer they are unlikely to be any cheaper and certainly wont have the knowledge and experience of this man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Is a Portuguese pointer considered an HPR over there? As was noted, you need to resolve what you want the dog trained for before embarking with a professional. "Advising that you find a German pointer trainer" is pretty ambiguous - h*ll, half the kurzaars in Germany don't even point game! If you want to invest a little more DIY in the dog, you might consider this outstanding training aid: http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/training.php it's been used invaluably in training HPRs to the highest levels in North America; conversely, I'm of the understanding and on pretty good local authority that what constitutes "highest levels" on y'all's sod ain't all that... MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Is a Portuguese pointer considered an HPR over there? As was noted, you need to resolve what you want the dog trained for before embarking with a professional. "Advising that you find a German pointer trainer" is pretty ambiguous - h*ll, half the kurzaars in Germany don't even point game! If you want to invest a little more DIY in the dog, you might consider this outstanding training aid: http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/training.php it's been used invaluably in training HPRs to the highest levels in North America; conversely, I'm of the understanding and on pretty good local authority that what constitutes "highest levels" on y'all's sod ain't all that... MG Not really I doubt even Rory has had one in. For all most of us know they might be a guide dog, its been well covered on here before the pup was purchased Its interesting that Whoa and stopping in mid charge or so far separated in that index? Edited March 4, 2014 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh air Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hi, Don't have an HPR but my brother speaks highly of Andrew Farley of Warrenby Gundogs down in East Sussex, he did some work with him & his Weim... useless on email so just call him... Has some good looking GSPs who are incredably well trained by all acounts Good luck http://www.warrenbygundogs.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would agree with the post's that ask if you know what you actually want the dog to do. If its going to spend its life sitting in a pigeon hide then there is little point ( no pun intended ) training it as a HPR If its HPR quality's are only going to be required a couple of times or so a season then again there will be little point unless he is going to get very regular training all year round. I fear you have set yourself a very difficult task , you have chosen a breed that very few people over here know little about , even the more popular HPRs are much more difficult to train for experienced handlers than Labs / Spaniels , they are bred to work much further away from the handler which makes them much harder to control , the interaction with the rest of the family will not help much either. Time is ticking by and you do need to sort a trainer as soon as possible . I know the dog was intended to be part of the family as well as a working dog but I must admit I thought at the time you introduced the pup to us that you had not chosen the right dog for your needs or experience. But I wish you the best of luck with him . If you do want to train him as a HPR Rory Majors DVDs are suppose to be very good and can be brought from the website I gave you the link to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 What have you done lessons wise so far with it? For what you want it for cos I would try and join in some bog standard gun dog lessons the basics are the same. The problems well a male hpr I can only imagine is pushing the limits as far as it can at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) What have you done lessons wise so far with it? For what you want it for cos I would try and join in some bog standard gun dog lessons the basics are the same. The problems well a male hpr I can only imagine is pushing the limits as far as it can at the moment... Hey Al4x Long time no hear, I haven't posted about my Land Rover for ages so you haven't been on my case I've only been doing basics since everything I've read and watched advises not to move on to a new stage until you have mastered the previous. He will sit, stay and come to voice, whistle and hand signals. He has experienced gun fire and shows no signs of nervousness. He will retrieve dummies and bring them back (though not always to hand) at home and in the garden. Where I am struggling is his steadiness especially when we are out. When we are out in a field he is so easily distracted with sniffing around or if he sees other dogs or a bird. Once he sees a dog or birds and he decides to go, there is no stopping him, so I am working (struggling would be more accurate) on this at the moment. He will retrieve when we are out, but where as at home or in the garden we can practice until I get bored, when we are in a field, he can lose interest all too quickly and start sniffing around. I can see he has an incredible natural instinct, when he sees a bird whether it's on the ground or in the air his whole stature changes and he goes into hunt mode. Because of my inexperience in gun dog training, I don't know how patient I need to be and how long to give him before he should be learning to start working with birds; What I don't want is to leave it too late and be told I have missed the boat or anything is irretrievable. Edited March 4, 2014 by Cosd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hey Al4x Long time no hear, I haven't posted about my Land Rover for ages so you haven't been on my case I've only been doing basics since everything I've read and watched advises not to move on to a new stage until you have mastered the previous. He will sit, stay and come to voice, whistle and hand signals. He has experienced gun fire and shows no signs of nervousness. He will retrieve dummies and bring them back (though not always to hand) at home and in the garden. Where I am struggling is his steadiness especially when we are out. When we are out in a field he is so easily distracted with sniffing around or if he sees other dogs or a bird. Once he sees a dog or birds and he decides to go, there is no stopping him, so I am working (struggling would be more accurate) on this at the moment. He will retrieve when we are out, but where as at home or in the garden we can practice until I get bored, when we are in a field, he can lose interest all too quickly and start sniffing around. I can see he has an incredible natural instinct, when he sees a bird whether it's on the ground or in the air his whole stature changes and he goes into hunt mode. Because of my inexperience in gun dog training, I don't know how patient I need to be and how long to give him before he should be learning to start working with birds; What I don't want is to leave it too late and be told I have missed the boat or anything is irretrievable. Most things are retrievable, but its going to be hard to get the thing pointing now its running in and chasing. Not impossible just very hard I think you might end up with a long range spaniel. The good thing is it has a desire towards game, you do need proper help at least to set you on track and prepare yourself because it aint cheap to board a dog for the period you might need let alone board and train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Most things are retrievable, but its going to be hard to get the thing pointing now its running in and chasing. Not impossible just very hard I think you might end up with a long range spaniel. The good thing is it has a desire towards game, you do need proper help at least to set you on track and prepare yourself because it aint cheap to board a dog for the period you might need let alone board and train He does point, he will hold a point but does eventually run in. All depends on what the bird is doing. If the bird is relatively still then he will hold his point, if it goes to take off Jake will charge in. If he's on the lead and goes into a point, or if he's close I can control the running in; It's when he is at distance that I'm not able to control it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 He does point, he will hold a point but does eventually run in. All depends on what the bird is doing. If the bird is relatively still then he will hold his point, if it goes to take off Jake will charge in. If he's on the lead and goes into a point, or if he's close I can control the running in; It's when he is at distance that I'm not able to control it. All is rosy then. easy to sort but don't listen to advice on here get it to Rory if he will take it on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 It doesn't sound to bad, i've seen fully trained hpr's that wont do half of wot ur's does already. The big thing about hpr's in general is there can be such a massive difference between individuals, sometimes even litter mates can be poles apart in temperment. Never actually trained with rory but his dvd is very good esp so if u are new to gundog training (Tommy Brechanny has an ancient 1 out if u can find it is also very good and surprisingly similar when u think how old it is) and has a god way of working with his dogs. I have not been impressed with all the hpr trainers i have trained with. Even a normal gundog training dvd will help, davy lissets etc, infact davy and rory seem to train in quite a similar way, trained and worked dogs with davy a few times now I would try and find some group seshions too to get ur dog used to other dogs etc, (possible long line? to help control?) so people can give u a hand and give u different ideas. But u will not ever get it to respond like a lab will, even the very best are not as obedient as an average lab, its just the way they are For the 1-1 i'd defo phone rory, even if he is miles away be well worth a trip. The 1 thng i've found about most dog trainers and esp hpr ones is they are happy to offer u advice and help and reccommend someone nearer to u, very small world and everyone knows each other Andy cullen, lochin? gundogs is also very highly reccommened and has access to work ur dogs on open grouse moors Alan hendden, west berkshire gundogs was the fella is was thinking about, wirewolf gundogs been very nice the few times i've met him Possibly askiing same question on a more specialised gundog or hpr forum might help to get a more informed response, althou to be fair most of the above are spot on My 1 word of advice woulkd be to be cuatious of any advice offered by any one who has not seen ur dog, no mater how good a trainer they are. I followed some bad advice (for me and my dog atleast) given to me by a very very good trainer who i have known for 25 odd year, sure it works for him but he had not seen my dog despite knowing the breed well, has took me a long time to get dog back. In hindsight knew it was not right for me at time but hey will have forgot more about dog training than i'll ever know so it makes u sit up and listen a bit My other bit of advice would be loads of ways to train a dog to the same level, none are right or wrong just wot suits u and dog better, find a trainer who suits u and ur dog, even if it means moving trainer till u find 1 u get on well with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Thanks for the advice guys. Already had a long chat with Andrew Farley and will be calling a couple more whom have been recommended. Andrew though too far seemed very knowledgable and passionate about HPR'a. He ha is happy to recommend other trainers too so am on the right track I think. He seemed positive and gave me confidence that the dog can achieve what I want which was quite reassuring. Thanks again Cos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Meant to say ur problems just sound ike any puppy problem that can happen with any dog at that age, i'm guessing ur PP is still very immature/puppy like for its age? Most hprs are. Possibly try not to put ur dog in a situation where it can disobey u, ie in public keep it on a lead so it can't chase play etc as that may become self rewarding in time, that is when u will really struggle Also about so state obvious (so apologies if u know this) but pretty much every gundog book will tell u to move back a step or 2when u go to a different/strange place, if ur dog is sitting staying at 100m in a familr place, go back to 20m when u go to a new place and work up agian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakerboy Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Hi Cos You could try Charlotte at Potters Bar, I have had many great reports if you want her details I will PM them over to you. Cheers Terry Edited March 4, 2014 by bakerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hi Cos You could try Charlotte at Potters Bar, I have had many great reports if you want her details I will PM them over to you. Cheers Terry That's not far from me at all so I'd be happy to have a chat with her as well. Thanks Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Cos, phone Andy Cullen at Laochin and see if you can get on one of training weekends he runs in Sussex if that's not too far for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Don't get too hung up on hpr trainers what you are trying to get you would get at any dog training. Steadiness and recall you would work on with anyone and as said in group sessions with others the dog is easier to expose to distractions. Personally I would look locally as then you can go more regularly and it is as much about you learning as the dog. For your use pointing is fairly irrelevant but in my experience they get steadier and steadier at it as they get more used to surroundings. I would also take pearce's advice earlier in this thread as well. One thing though is they grow out of a lot of it with consistent training, and it could be worse one of the dog pups I sold has killed 3 cats so far and that was by 8 months old mostly in the owners garden he is going to be a stalking dog but it is funny how they have to check their own garden is cat free before letting him out Edited March 4, 2014 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh air Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Just to follow up on stage of your dog at, my brothers Weim was 3 when he first went to see Farley, totally bonkers, litterally no gundog training and marginal obedience - through working with him over a few months he learnt a huge amount and when focussed (key part) could make a half decent attempt at trialling - i.e. you can teach a dog new tricks! Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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