jam1e Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hi folks, I'm starting to really get into crow/pigeon decoying lately, and although my kill percentage isn't very good, at least I'm getting better! I'm getting through quite a few cartridges, hence I'm contemplating buying a "Lee Load All" for my 12 bore cartridges. What sort of percentage saving will I make on average, compared to buying them complete? I've been reloading my rifle ammo for around a year, so I'm still a "newbie". So some beginners tips for 12 bore reloading would be appreciated. Thanks. Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I believe the consensus is that for clay loads - it is cheaper to buy them. For specialist loads (i.e. game loads), you can make a savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 get 2nd hand gear ,look for people giving up .theres always bargins to lower the price further.my first loader was a lee junior but it works.my powder nobel 80 ,not been made for years but still goes bang with a reasuring flame .lotsa wads going cheap on the bay and various shooting forums.even lead shot is available .have a look at clay n game reloads website,siarm and folkestone eng supplies you can work it for yourself if u can save or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 It depends on what cartridges you use now. I only load non toxic and i can save on my steel duck and goose loads, more so on the hevi shot and certainly will be a saving for the 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Shot is the tricky bit I believe unless you make your own it costs alot to buy and ship biggest saving are in none Toxic loads, depends how you value your time and if you look at loading as a hobby or a chore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Maybe reload some 1oz #5.for smooth shooting. The reloading is tricky. Its not if you shoot cheap shells. But the performance increase is more than justified. The loads are better, because you are not restricted to the #6. If you were to devote time to reloading, and the cartridges mean that much. I'd just d a 1300fps of #5. And leave it at that. It is going to pattern and perform better than any 1500fps#6. Recoil less, and cost less. What's the catch? Can be reloaded in fibre and plastic z24. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Thanks for the replies folks. I'm in no big rush, so i'll probably wait until the right used "Loader" and components come along. Apologies, for my ignorance, but I'm sure I understand some points made My shotgun is a beretta A302 semi-auto, with a 1/2 choke. I have plenty of time as I'm retired. I'm not after a fancy load that standard off the shelf can't give me, unless that's easily achieved, with a little effort and buying the right materials... And I kind of see reloading as a hobby. I was intrigued when I saw a cartridge being made in 30 seconds! Perhaps it looked good, but they'd perform ****?? I'd prefer bio-degradable shot and wads. I hate it when on occasions, I come across plastic wads around me from years gone by.. I currently use Eley Hi-Flyer, fibre wad, 30 grams of no.6 shot, and 67mm long. Is this cartridge right for my current needs of decoying crows and pigeons? If there's a way to improve my kill ratio, (bar practice) then I'd like to make-up some of whatever they may be? Is it ok to use new once fired brass, or "Hulls" as I think they're called? If so, how many times on average would I be able to use them? I appreciate it may come down to load, but on an average basis? What's the benefit of steel shot over lead shot, or non toxic lead when shooting crows and pigeons? Cookoff013, why can the reloading be tricky? Also, why would the "1oz #5". be "smooth shooting". Apologies for all the questions folks, but we all have to start somewhere Some advice, or links to decent price "FleaBay" wads and shot would be appreciated. Cheers Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Cookoff is a bit of a master reloader from what I have read, it's about getti g the right combination of load, powder and wad. Degradable shot might be an issue but the rest is doable. A smooth load comes from getting the right burn characteristic for that load with a semi recoil won't be so much of an issue but reliable cycling can be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Just talk to John at Folkestone Engineering Services, he'll tell you what you want and sell you it at a great price. I would suggest buying a MEC600jr as a minimum if you want to make a decent and enjoyable job of reloading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Cookoff is a bit of a master reloader from what I have read, it's about getti g the right combination of load, powder and wad. Degradable shot might be an issue but the rest is doable. A smooth load comes from getting the right burn characteristic for that load with a semi recoil won't be so much of an issue but reliable cycling can be you are too kind. i just like testing stuff, thats all. trying new powders and stuff. i`ve had alot of failures at testing. (A LOT !) its tricky, because of "lack of quality data" there is good data and bad data out there, there are some phenominal recipes for you, and there are some complete rubbish ones. most of the data thats batted around has no pressure data. the pressure data can tell you alot. (infact its like a little story). he americans have lots of data, and load ladders. ie they test at every increase in powder. untill the limit has been hit. guys on here can point you in the right direction for great loads (and could be great value) my thinking of 1oz of #5 at 1300fps, is that cartridge would take care of most pigeon,crow, etc even if you never really get the full 1300fps (although there are quality recipes about) Just talk to John at Folkestone Engineering Services, he'll tell you what you want and sell you it at a great price. I would suggest buying a MEC600jr as a minimum if you want to make a decent and enjoyable job of reloading. i would do exactly this. i use john at fes quite a bit. i dont reload normal shells, and i just do alot of testing now (when i can !) http://www.####.co.uk/loads1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 also, reloaders just assemble components, thats it, decent recipes and "following those recipes". both the lee and mec can produce the same shell, they can shoot exactly the same. its the recipe / components that make decent shells. the 600JR was my first machine, i sold that to a member on here, i had bought a sizemaster and now a mec9000 so with the little time i get i can print out quite a few. the sizemaster is near identical to the JR, but it has a different resizing method. a shell every 30 seconds is about right, but dont rush. its not a race. my 9000 can print out 600+ / hr. but i am never ever going to run it like that. 200/hr tops, relaxing ! i have to admit, that i really love the single stage, but i`m getting the 9000 up and running. i`m sad to say that some give up reloading, but its not for everyone, even i buy factory shells. its convenient. i`ve been refused #5 shotsize in the past. as being unsuitable. i used to shoot 4s and 2s at ground game ! (and i still recomend 4s) one of my reloads i do exclusively for my sxs, is a low recoil load, those light old designed guns were never ever supposed to have 1600fps 36g loads through them. thats just sheer punishment. i instead load 32g slow loads (subsonics) but BIG shotsize. ( its the equivalent to a 2.5dram 1,1/8oz load) and it hits like a freight-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 A quick back of the envelope calculation from the FES prices list tells me that to make 1000 Fibre 30gm #6 (pigeon) cartridges would cost about £223/1000 - and that is assuming you are picking up free spent hulls to reload with. Would be more expensive if you bought virgin hulls. Just cartridges (not the cheapest by any stretch) sell fibre 30gm #6 Gamebore Clear Pigeon for £210/1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 A quick back of the envelope calculation from the FES prices list tells me that to make 1000 Fibre 30gm #6 (pigeon) cartridges would cost about £223/1000 - and that is assuming you are picking up free spent hulls to reload with. Would be more expensive if you bought virgin hulls. Just cartridges (not the cheapest by any stretch) sell fibre 30gm #6 Gamebore Clear Pigeon for £210/1000 wow, only £20 more? for me thats worth it. but thats restrictive to the #6. and comparing prices of high quality shells (ie 32g loads ) not the dreaded 7.5s on pigeon. i cost calculated all the time 6 months ago it was about 180-200 but there is fluctuation of about £20 either way. those costings above are about right ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) The FES price for shot is the same per KG no matter what the size - he sells from #5 to #9. You can certainly save money for the more specialist shells, and of course you can save alot more if you make your own shot and have a good source of cheap lead. Super Sharp Shooter said he can make 32 (or 34 don't remember)g cartridges for 170/1000 - but he makes his own shot, and has a brother in law who is a roofer Personally - I may well take it up in the future just for the enjoyment of doing it - just can't justify all the kit with the amount of shooting I do at the moment. I wish Lee still made the original Lee Loader which was cheap in its day. It's a bit slow - but if you just want to do 25 specialist loads and have time on your hands, it seems to work a treat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uJfG81hQDA Edited March 10, 2014 by aris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 i actually build my loads to test by hand. not quite like that, but almost. the cost of the shot is the same, hence the 1oz load of 5s being comparable, to the cost of 9s. i use johns #9 shot and it is fantastic quality. i`m pushing it fast. i do and can help local people trying to start up. i do like to chat beforehand to ***** what cartridges you`ve used before and what you expect. i dont really see the point of reducing powder charges to make economic choices. a friend, did just that, went out shooting ducks with homeloads. he couldnt see the point of loading that much powder so knocked off quite abit off an already anaemic load. it cost him several ducks and ended up leaving and going home. another friend and i reloaded in his shop. actually for the sxs we both have (merkel47E) he has the 147 / 50`s version i have the 2008 version and we shot alot of clays with the light loads. he shot the best he ever did, because he wasnt being kicked about with such a light sxs. a shop 20 miles away wanted £400/ k for some game shells 1oz and #6s. i didnt take them up on that offer. if thats the way shells are going, god help us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 How do you crimp with your hand-loads? RTO? Do you know of any hand-driven device like the vintage lee loader above which will do a star crimp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I've just arrived home with another pile of free lead from where I'm working I can make 20 gauge shells from about £75-£90 per k depending on what I'm loading and what breaks I can get on components. Shop bought are £210-£280. My lead is effectively free at the minute, I've had well over 100kg from the refurbishment job I'm on and to be honest I enjoy making the shot and reloading the cartridges as much as shooting them. I made 60kg of no7.5 for my clayloads this weekend which should keep me sorted for a bit. Trying to do it with out spending anything is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion, buy some decent kit and enjoy the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I've just arrived home with another pile of free lead from where I'm working I can make 20 gauge shells from about £75-£90 per k depending on what I'm loading and what breaks I can get on components. Shop bought are £210-£280. My lead is effectively free at the minute, I've had well over 100kg from the refurbishment job I'm on and to be honest I enjoy making the shot and reloading the cartridges as much as shooting them. I made 60kg of no7.5 for my clayloads this weekend which should keep me sorted for a bit. Trying to do it with out spending anything is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion, buy some decent kit and enjoy the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughshooter Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 You are not far away from me so if you want to pop over and have a cup of tea sometime then I will show you a few machines and give you a demo on how to load your own shells Regards Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Great offer from Graham, it will save lots of heartache and shortcut the route to a very enjoyable pastime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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