islandgun Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Scotslad, are you East or West ? We haven't had a frost this year over in the N West, When I first started to build my house about 12yrs ago I always had the intention of having underfloor heating, but began to question its necessity and didn't do it, My own personal choice is a large woodburner and solar panels to heat the water with small radiators in each room, coupled with the best insulation you can find, passive solar gain from south facing windows and small windows facing north, as I said my personal choice and there's some outstanding advice on here, just wonder about how hot you want to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) As will be obvious i'm not a builder so not very familar with regs and from wot i gather they are constantly changing and getting more stringent with reguards to insulation. Will have to wait and see wot planning/building control say but imagine i will be putting a timber kit up in side the existing walls, my mate has just built a house and i have been well warned by him about all this insulation and taping joints etc (he ended up buying silage bale wrap tape as a lot cheaper than the stuff he was meant to, but still air tight tape) You will probably need to frame out the inside face of the external wall with treated studwork @ 600 centres using a 50 mm profile timber. if the external stone walls are particularly exposed it would be best to leave a 25mm cavity and not insulate between the studs but use a composite insulated plasterboard The extruded insulation variant is better rather than expanded polystyrene as it a greater thermal resistivity /mm of thickness and will therefore give optimum u values and keep the wall thickness down. I would suggest a 62.5 mm board would be sufficient. You could supplement this with a 50mm friction fitted dritherm batt between the studs. You should staple a tyvek or similar vapour barrier to the studwork before fixing the insulated plasterboard. once you have had the plasterboard skimmed the junctions will need to be caulked before decoration. The plaster will be sealed when it is emulsioned. I would strongly advise against the use of bale wrap tape as it is not fire retarded. The proper tape is not expensive in the scheme of things Aluminium tape is about £7 per 50 m. Air tightness sealing is a chore but need not be expensive...just think of the money it will save you when it is completed effectively. heat to heat such a small house i won't be using/generating enough Kw to get a decent return. A lot of farmers in my area are putting biomass in for this reason, there loving it. Makes a mockery of green energy the way the RHI payments work, all wrong. My brother built his house about 8ish years ago so fairly modern and fairly well insulated (althou nothing like the standards now) his heating/boiler has broke twice this year, first time was in Jan when we had a bit of a cold snap took about 4-5 days before u actually noticed the heaing wasnae on althou it did take 3-4 days to get the house warmed up again once it was fixed. The concrete holds so much heat Never heard of this heat recovery before so i will give it a look later on when i get some time. All the timber in the house is going to have to come out including floor joists and floor anyway so it won't be that much extra hassle to concrete the floor anyway when i'm going that far. It might be better to put a timber floor back in and insulate between the joists and /or use a insulated particle board floor panel. Cheers folks some really good info so far. Just an add on while ur here. Do any of u know much about private wind turbines? Got a wee bit of land with the house which is only a couple of miles as the crow flies to about 200 odd big turbines, think it might be slightly in a lee of the hill thou, only had the site a month so still learning it a bit, althou i have been climbing a cutting a few trees and i am fairly getting bufted about at times. Is it easy to stick up an anometer? on a mast to try and measure wind speed? Is there and easy way to tell if there is any turbulance? as i gather the turbines don't like turbulance much This website will tell you all you need to know about renewables. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Choosing-a-renewable-technology/Wind-turbines Edited April 10, 2014 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Biomass boiler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Interesting thing on the news about Russia suggesting a massive hike in gas prices.... I think that's 100% on the cards. Is there a site or an idiots guide to heating solutions? I just don't know enough about the options and solutions to make a decision. I'm moving in 2 weeks and it's going to be a start again job, and I could go solar, under floor, gas, multi fuel, oil or a combination thereof. We're getting (or rather digging an extension that will include) a basement and someone suggested a heat pump. It's all Greek to me and unless I get into it it's going to be gas. That's a fracking disgrace. I suspect if they do put the price up drastically they will be stuck with it. I sometimes wonder though how our parents managed to bring us up so healthily in the 50,s and 60's with just a paraffin heater in the kitchen, another on the landing and a hot water boiler.. Shame the kids of today wont have the chance to scrape "Billy White is a ****" in the ice on the inside of their bedroom windows as we did in 68 ...white was the village bully (and idiot) who lived next door. Edited April 10, 2014 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Biomass boiler? Good shout but more suited to larger properties or several communal homes to be really efficient. You normally find that the people who can afford to install them can also afford to buy the fuel.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 V true Mike, if able to heat more than one property its free heating for three years with all the subsidies available. Pellets arent that dear either. Chuck out a lot of heat and really advanced tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Interesting thing on the news about Russia suggesting a massive hike in gas prices.... I think that's 100% on the cards. Is there a site or an idiots guide to heating solutions? I just don't know enough about the options and solutions to make a decision. I'm moving in 2 weeks and it's going to be a start again job, and I could go solar, under floor, gas, multi fuel, oil or a combination thereof. We're getting (or rather digging an extension that will include) a basement and someone suggested a heat pump. It's all Greek to me and unless I get into it it's going to be gas. There is info out there by googling it, energy saving trust site is quite good, meant to do free site visits and have advisers on the phone. there is a few other half decent ones too BUT the more u read the more it burst's ur heid!! I spoke to an energy saving trust advisor who are meant to be impartial but to me she seemed to want to push air source pumps and PV panels the 2 things as thou there were the best things since sliced bread, i thought these were the least likely to work in my situation, which i'm glad to say has been backed up by most on here, i think. May be more suitable for urself depending on ur location and house. Must admit quite annoyed that a government funded body is really trying to push certain renewables when if they were honest they should just tell u straight prob no good/not ideal for SW Scotland. Ur phoning then for informed impartial advice but there no beter than the sales people. Was speaking to my mate in a bit more detail the day who's drawing my plans and 1 of his clients is trying to take a air source heat pump supplier to court over the ridiculas bills he's getting charged for it. At moment (and this could change quite easily) think i'm going to put a small biomass burner in utility with another throu wall in living room (sharing same chimney but different flues) (dunno if worth connecting it into the boiler too?) a larger than needed accululator tank/heat store with extra feed ins even if not used so i can add on in the future, solar water? or ground source etc Worst of it is i like quite a cold house anyway and the even worst bit is, it will be murder up there for midges, dunno how i'm going to cope esp if can't open windows. Little b *****d's. Have had to abadon a couple of stalking trips in summer due to them and that's with a midge net + cream on The joys of living in the country side Mike i'm sure my mate had to use 4" kingspan on his kit, plus 50 mm below the plasterboard and foil backed plaster board on any external walls, had to double board all ceillings with staggered joins too. He said the special tape did start to mount up (but he's built a fairly large house) Alot of my mates are in various trades and i have done a fair bit of labouring over the years as well as doing something similar to my house the now. It was about 12 years ago and stripped back to masonry, lined it just with 50mm polysterene and put a 68mm floating flor in kitchen (50mm poly +floorboards) and u would not believe the difference it made to the house esp the floating floor kitchen used to be baltic when doing it up and no heating the insuation made a massive difference. I didn't have to go throu buildin control so didn't need to do any of it but soooo glad i did, and polyserene won't be anything like as good as the modern kingsan/cele The big problem is to get the grants u have to have it fitted by a MGS fitter and they are charging an absolute fortune, u really need to be putting a big system in and working it hard to get ur money back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 when i built this house (block cavity wall) I used 100 and 50mm kingspan, roof, wall, floor, I use a large wood burner with small rads in bedrooms (non in mine). we don't have any heating on in the summer or occasional fire on wet days, I didn't have the money to fit anything more expensive and I'm glad I didn't, my best advice is go to peoples homes locally and see what they have, if your1500ft up a mountain in the east or like me 10ft above the Atlantic in the west then the heating should fit accordingly, theres nothing quite so satisfying as a very large stack of wood outside your house and with the saved money you could buy a truck to haul it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Mike i'm sure my mate had to use 4" kingspan on his kit, plus 50 mm below the plasterboard and foil backed plaster board on any external walls, had to double board all ceillings with staggered joins too. He said the special tape did start to mount up (but he's built a fairly large house) Alot of my mates are in various trades and i have done a fair bit of labouring over the years as well as doing something similar to my house the now. It was about 12 years ago and stripped back to masonry, lined it just with 50mm polysterene and put a 68mm floating flor in kitchen (50mm poly +floorboards) and u would not believe the difference it made to the house esp the floating floor kitchen used to be baltic when doing it up and no heating the insuation made a massive difference. I didn't have to go throu buildin control so didn't need to do any of it but soooo glad i did, and polyserene won't be anything like as good as the modern kingsan/cele If when you have the drawings completed and your designer cant do it let me have a copy of the plans and I can calculate the optimum thicknesses and specification of insulation required in roof floors and walls to comply with current U values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 If when you have the drawings completed and your designer cant do it let me have a copy of the plans and I can calculate the optimum thicknesses and specification of insulation required in roof floors and walls to comply with current U values. He must be lead by Building control on this and Scotland have different stds than England, I am assuming the work is intensive enough to involve them in this statement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) He must be lead by Building control on this and Scotland have different stds than England, I am assuming the work is intensive enough to involve them in this statement Not if its done by an independent assessor or a qualified professional and I am well aware of the requirements of The Building (Scotland ) regulations 2014 Thank you... Scotland isn't detached from Britain just yet ! Edited April 11, 2014 by Fisherman Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Come on even when you pay for in depth structural calcs costing thousands some less knowledgeable / qualified guy from building control in the area still have to agree it, as you pay the same to them you might as well ask, this is one area they are actually worth something of their fee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Come on even when you pay for in depth structural calcs costing thousands some less knowledgeable / qualified guy from building control in the area still have to agree it, as you pay the same to them you might as well ask, this is one area they are actually worth something of their fee Not so..Building control cannot specify they can only check and sanction that the design complies with the approved documents or their interpretation of it...If something fails you wont see them for dust as they have no Professional Liability as designers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Or make it even simpler,,,,,, make call to technical and send drawings to kingspan/xtratherm etc and they will tell you what you need......calcs and all,now obviously they will push their best product but you can change spec to suit,,,ie don't put say kooltherm which is fire rated below floor screed use a floor rated board at say 30% less cost,,,, my unqualified builders take is this,,,green is to dear for all you get,, spend the extra cash on insulation keep the heat in its that simple thermal board walls and ceiling this really works,,,,we do this on every project,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Not so..Building control cannot specify they can only check and sanction that the design complies with the approved documents or their interpretation of it...If something fails you wont see them for dust as they have no Professional Liability as designers. oh contrary they can be liable, hence why they go straight off the book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Or make it even simpler,,,,,, make call to technical and send drawings to kingspan/xtratherm etc and they will tell you what you need......calcs and all,now obviously they will push their best product but you can change spec to suit,,,ie don't put say kooltherm which is fire rated below floor screed use a floor rated board at say 30% less cost,,,, my unqualified builders take is this,,,green is to dear for all you get,, spend the extra cash on insulation keep the heat in its that simple thermal board walls and ceiling this really works,,,,we do this on every project,, It is I agree, total new build is different to renovation though. Government subsidies defiantly encourage over pricing of product. Insulation certainly has the greatest payback and it keeps on going unlike a lot of green technology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Or make it even simpler,,,,,, make call to technical and send drawings to kingspan/xtratherm etc and they will tell you what you need......calcs and all,now obviously they will push their best product but you can change spec to suit,,,ie don't put say kooltherm which is fire rated below floor screed use a floor rated board at say 30% less cost,,,, my unqualified builders take is this,,,green is to dear for all you get,, spend the extra cash on insulation keep the heat in its that simple thermal board walls and ceiling this really works,,,,we do this on every project,, which is what i meant earlier, don't over specify or spend as much as you can, save your money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted April 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Unfortunately i have to go throu all the building control and planning b *****cks, the local planning office are the bain of most of the local builders lifes, absolutely no common sense or any reason or consistancy with some of their decisions. Not looking forward to dealing with them. For past few years building trade been quiet locally and then u hear some of the decsions they come up with just making everyones life harder Cheers mike, my mate is fairly clued up and that's wot he does for a living also i think the building control tell u wot u have to have, dunno if there meant to but they do. At moment just at very early stages of drawing really just getting the layout sorted first hence why i'm not sure exactly wot construction type/insulation Cheers for the very kind offer thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Firstly don't listen to builders who work for their personal income about building control. They are biased by the fact they slow the job up and cost them money. They are there for the good of the homeowner and that of the general public, you might not always agree with them or want them to tell you to re-do something at extra cost but that's the fact of it. One job were the builder is told to do something again, uncover illegally finished work or just plain do a little more than he thought he might get away with tends to sully the relationship. They are not there to be your builders friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted April 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Possibly fair enough down south or nearer big cities, but not many cowboys or crooks in this area really. It's far too small for any dodgy tradesmen to get away with trading for very long, suppose we're quite lucky really. The boys i;'m speaking too aren't cutting corners or doing dodgy jobs. Even some of the builders from other areas almost refuse to come down and do work purely due to the local planning dept. Some of the decsions they made up here are just farcical, insitiing on slates, render type when all the house around have tiles or are a mixture of anything. The lad who's coming out to assess/price some digger work for me took 18 month to get windows approved for his barn conversion when he eventually spat the dummy (amazed he kept it in as long as not know for his long fuse) they told him to fit wotever he wanted I know 1 farmer refused permission to change a carpy old skylight into a velux as it would affect the charcter of the valley been farming that valley for generations, yet they let the b loody buddists build houses where ever they want and build a 20-30 ft tall golden snake and budda in full view of the road total eyesore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 National park? Your talking about planning above not building control (unless they are mixed, something I have never known) Building control have no say in any of the above things in England. What BC do is all the bits planning don't ie. depth of footings, drainage, structural matters and insulation stds etc.etc. If your chap put his velux in all BC are interested in is it is fitted in such a way as its safe and meets with current regs on glazing, from their point they couldn't approve the existing bit of junk the planners want to remain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Velux do a range of conservation roof lights that your farmer could fit. I've fitted normal velux roof lights and fitted a conservation glazing bar to the roof lights seen from the front to blend the roof lights into the slate roof, very happy with the results. Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushies Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Been fitting Daikin air source in Morayshire (Scotland) for the past 4 years mostly in low cost housing, feedback from tenants is mostly positive, I'm sure Daikin say these units will work using the air for heat up to -20 (before solely relying on electric to create heat) as we have also fitted them, and still are in big private houses in Braemar with no issues, yet. So they will work in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted April 15, 2014 Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Air source heat pumps will work in Northern uk, only not as efficient as in the south. It's the reliability of the compressor pumps and fans that concern me and the low out put for the unit size, 12kw was about the biggest of the most efficient type available, I would need three for my needs which is far to costly. One on its own would heat the underfloor heating. Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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