Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[David BASC]

Given that the issue here is crop damage - resulting in the loss of income to the farmer, and given that there is the Agricultural Holdings Act and the potential for al liability compensation claim against a shoot in other circumstances, why would there be a need to put pheasant to the GL?

[Conor O'Gorman]

Yesterday 44 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 44 people only 2 were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposal.

 

anser 2 - putting pheasants on relevant general licences would not impact on their national population, as per mallard and greylag.The key principle with wildlife licensing is that it's the landowner's perogative to consider when the control of any species of animal might be necessary, with action subject to what is legal. On this thread approximately 40 people are saying that landowners should have to face extra red tape when it comes to necessary legal control of species of wildfowl. Correct me if I am wrong but i think the basic principle for that view is because those approx 40 people believe that wildfowl are owned by wildfowlers. That is the view of approx 40 forum members. There are 32,974 members on this forum.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Conor O'Gorman

[strongbow]

Quote from David BASC"As I said before do we really want to paint BASC and its members and the shooting organisation who wants farmers and landowners tied up in red tape, have to fill in a 10 page application form and to have to wait up to 30 days or more to get a SL granted if their crops are being damaged? How many people could lose their shooting opportunity if this were the case? "

 

David,

I don't believe anyone lost the opportunity for shooting geese in 2011 because of NE taking too long to process a SL, due to there being no licences issued for greylag crop protection in this year according to NE records.

 

With only 30 SLs in 2012 (I'm not sure how many of those were for shooting and how many for egg destruction as the details are not currenly on the NE web site) but I would image not many !!!

 

According to NE Stats for March 2014 they are currently meeting 92.77% of service targets for "other Licences" which includes Geese. http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/march-2014-delivery-report_tcm6-37729.pdf page 5

 

So what is the REAL issue ?

[BuddonNess]

Kent I've heard this many times trying to fight from within.. do you and others really think that a minority section of the membership is ever going to get enough wildfowlers onto council to take control?? never in our wildest dreams the high ups will Never let that happen.

[kent]

Yesterday 44 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 44 people only 2 were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposal.

 

anser 2 - putting pheasants on relevant general licences would not impact on their national population, as per mallard and greylag.The key princilple with wildlife licensing is that it's the landowner's perogative to consider when the control of any species of animal might be necessary, with action subject to what is legal. On this thread approximately 40 people are saying that landowners should have to face extra red tape when it comes to necessary legal control of species of wildfowl. Correct me if I am wrong but i think the basic principle for that view is because those approx 40 people believe that wildfowl are owned by wildfowlers. That is the view of approx 40 forum members. There are 32,974 members on this forum.

Under the circumstances I shouldn't send my response to BASC - ON THIS YOU ARE THE OPOSITION. If putting a bird on GL don't effect their population there is no point to having it there is there at all is it now? What sort of a fool thinks that, If the hypothetical pheasant became GL who cares if it don't effect population? Of course it effects the population you cannot kill something and still have it flying round and if you kill it out of the traditional season you also stop the young living (making one shot that will kill many) and importantly joining the ranks in the winter Or breeding its own brood at 2 yrs Plus. Remember Geese don't breed the next spring following their birth like most birds and don't raise multiple clutches . We are talking of a Bird that was hunted out previously for food with muzzle loading guns, its been done before in times when it had more places to hide from a smaller population

[Conor O'Gorman]

Under the circumstances I shouldn't send my response to BASC - ON THIS YOU ARE THE OPOSITION. If putting a bird on GL don't effect their population there is no point to having it there is there at all is it now? What sort of a fool thinks that, If the hypothetical pheasant became GL who cares if it don't effect population? Of course it effects the population you cannot kill something and still have it flying round and if you kill it out of the traditional season you also stop the young living (making one shot that will kill many) and importantly joining the ranks in the winter Or breeding its own brood at 2 yrs Plus. Remember Geese don't breed the next spring following their birth like most birds and don't raise multiple clutches . We are talking of a Bird that was hunted out previously for food with muzzle loading guns, its been done before in times when it had more places to hide from a smaller population

 

kent, thank you. You believe that general licences exist as a means of reducing the population of a species. They do not. Show me a species on general licences that has a declining population?

[kent]

Kent I've heard this many times trying to fight from within.. do you and others really think that a minority section of the membership is ever going to get enough wildfowlers onto council to take control? ? never in our wildest dreams the high ups will Never let that happen.

Well what side are you on? We currently have a guy standing who voted strongly for the ban on foxhunting, he didn't tell us but he did. Wildfowlers do other things and it seems you only get so many words to say good about yourselves. Say a stalker stood and he was also a member of a syndicate and a keen air rifle shot ex councillor and business man (gosh that's pushing some buttons), could he get elected without telling all he was a wildfowler? I suspect he could you know and if a few thousand wildfowlers also knew the fact on the quiet .................................... Think on! I recon most members don't even vote

[kent]

kent, thank you. You believe that general licences exist as a means of reducing the population of a species. They do not. Show me a species on general licences that has a declining population?

I will if Mallard and greys go on. So far we have only had proper pest birds that are too high nationally and too effective a breeder in most instances to suffer a population decline Crows, Pigeon, Magpies etc. I am struggling to think of any that are so limited in habitat as Greylag and Mallard, I just don't see many Greylags feeding on rubbish on dumps or in gardens, towns etc. The species on at present are of a very different nature to those proposed, Special licence nobody has raised a single complaint about you will note! We are not preservationists we are conservationists and there is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

What we are talking of is Amber listed birds so get real

[Conor O'Gorman]

I will if Mallard and greys go on. So far we have only had proper pest birds that are too high nationally and too effective a breeder in most instances to suffer a population decline Crows, Pigeon, Magpies etc. I am struggling to think of any that are so limited in habitat as Greylag and Mallard, I just don't see many Greylags feeding on rubbish on dumps or in gardens, towns etc. The species on at present are of a very different nature to those proposed, Special licence nobody has raised a single complaint about you will note! We are not preservationists we are conservationists and there is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

What we are talking of is Amber listed birds so get real

 

Canada geese were added to general licences in England from 2005 onwards. The average numbers of Canada geese shot per wildfowling visit on the Crown Estate has increased since they were added on to the English and Welsh general licences. The UK population trend has continued to increase since the addition of Canada geese to the general licences. The proportion of the Great Britain population of Canada geese using shot-over estuaries has increased in line with the population trend.

 

The population of breeding greylag geese has increased by 179% in the last 20 years and the breeding mallard population has increased by 20% in the same time period. For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs and 457 licences to shoot or kill by injection 15,647 birds. Most of these licences were to prevent serious damage to crops or to protect air safety. For mallard in the period from 2005-2011 there were 78 licences issued to destroy up to 32,440 eggs and 30 licences to shoot or kill by injection 2,471 birds. Most of these licences were to protect public health and air safety.

 

The issue is not whether the population of greylag or mallard will be affected by changes in the administration of wildlife licensing, the issue is that a small number of people dont like the idea of species of wildfowl being on a general licence beause of their pre-conceived ideas about it being a 'vermin list'. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinion and to relate that in a response to a consultation, but rallying others to their cause based on misinformation about impacts on population are misplaced to say the least.

 

The consultation is also taking views on whether the robin can also be added to the same general licences as mallard and greylags.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Conor O'Gorman

[riptide]

Conor you put ---

 

Yesterday 44 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 44 people two were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposals.

Only two ,,Oh Dear Oh dear So 42 were for them going on the GL , or made no comment on those two birds ...

Sounds like the rough and game shooters are in the four !!!!!

and if as it looks like NE are going to add some form filling with the GLs for greys and mallards then the farming and others will have yet more paperwork/red tape to contend with than they have and can handel with the currant SLs !!!!!!..

And if those figures are correcty (44 less 2 ) then no hope of a vote of no confidence !!!!!

Riptide

 

[strongbow]

FYI

 

http://basc.org.uk/about-basc/basc-policies/basc-policy-on-wildfowling/

 

"BASC will do everything within its power to promote and protect the sport of wildfowling. It will encourage and facilitate entry to the sport, support and extend the club structure and represent the sport at all levels. BASC will furthermore oppose at all levels any restriction being placed upon wildfowling that is not, in the opinion of both the Council and its Wildfowling Liaison Committee, capable of being shown by clear evidence to be necessary for the future of wildfowling in the UK and the wildfowl and wildlife habitat on which wildfowling depends."

 

[Chad63]

Conor you put ---

 

Yesterday 44 people emailed BASC copies of their responses to the consultation. All contained some very well put arguments for and against the various proposals. Of those 44 people two were opposed to the greylag/mallard proposals.

Only two ,,Oh Dear Oh dear So 42 were for them going on the GL , or made no comment on those two birds ...

 

Sounds like the rough and game shooters are in the four !!!!!

and if as it looks like NE are going to add some form filling with the GLs for greys and mallards then the farming and others will have yet more paperwork/red tape to contend with than they have and can handel with the currant SLs !!!!!!..

And if those figures are correcty (44 less 2 ) then no hope of a vote of no confidence !!!!!

Riptide

 

Or could it be the "kill em coz they're there" brigade that are ever plenty in these Isles? That's the type that's killing wildfowling here in the west-country and no doubt this "cancer" will spread elsewhere..... But hey ho we're only 7k out of 130k!

 

 

Edited May 11, 2014 by Chad63

[David BASC]

Morning,

 

Stronbow, I think you misunderstood me. When I talk about a potential loss of shooting opportunity, I am not talking about the people who shoot geese under the SL. What I have said is that the majority of shooters, pigeon, rabbit, game and so on get their access to shooting through access to farmland, this would undoubtedly be harder if BASC and its members were seen to be against allowing farmers to choose the method of control over species that may be causing a problem.

 

Kent, please remember that the objective of the GL is to give landowners the ability to control species on their land that are causing a problem in that locality. This will reduce the population in that locality of course, just like it does when you shoot geese on the foreshore. But as Conor has said, the evidence is clear that the overall population and the overall bag returns will not be impacted as shown by the population and bag return trends of canadas .

 

I think it is important that the BASC Council is made up of people who have an interest in different forms of shooting, after all they are there to represent all BASC members, not just wildfowlers, stalkers, airgunners, game and rough shooters etc

 

David

[strongbow]

Morning David

So are you saying that farmers nationwide would look at revoking permission for shooting their vermin etc, because they are members of BASC, which did not support a handful of farmers?

 

I find that very hard believe.

 

The factual figures behind the Issue of Licences.

The population of breeding greylag geese has increased by 179% in the last 20 years (8.95% per year) and the breeding mallard population has increased by 20% in the same time period. (a mere 1 % per year) For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs (the actual numbers of licences for crop protection were, 2005 -43, 2006 -23, 2007 -28, 2008 -28, 2009 -25, 2010 -2, 2011 -0 Grand total 149) and 457 licences to shoot or kill by injection 15,647, birds. (actual numbers of licences for crop protection were, 2005 -65, 2006 -33, 2007 -51, 2008 -53, 2009 -56, 2010 -49, 2011 -0, Grand total 307) Most of these licences were to prevent serious damage to crops (43% and 67% respectively ) or to protect air safety.

For mallard in the period from 2005-2011 there were 78 licenses (only 11.1 per year) issued to destroy up to 32,440 eggs and 30 licences (only 4.3 per year) to shoot or kill by injection 2,471 birds. Most of these licences were to protect public health and air safety.

 

Number of Licences Cormorant for the same period (2005-2011) 2706 http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/piscy-stats_tcm6-10263.pdf

 

 

There is a downward trend in Licence Issue for Greylag and Mallard, but upward for Cormorants.

 

[strongbow]

David

 

Just to let you know that a letter was recieved by our club secertary, it was address to him as a member so he never thought of it as a club corrspondence.

It was, however, nothing more than a copy and paste of the infomation on the web site, starting......

 

Dear Member,

 

Natural Englands consultation on general and class licences

 

BASC Council is aware that some concern has been expressed about BASC’s position on the Natural England consultation on general and class licences. While the consultation covers a number of proposals, wildfowlers have shown an interest in two in particular because they relate to greylag geese and mallard........ Blah, Blah,Blah

 

 

Sorry I was hoping for a little more than that.

 

[scotslad]

 

Canada geese were added to general licences in England from 2005 onwards. The average numbers of Canada geese shot per wildfowling visit on the Crown Estate has increased since they were added on to the English and Welsh general licences. The UK population trend has continued to increase since the addition of Canada geese to the general licences. The proportion of the Great Britain population of Canada geese using shot-over estuaries has increased in line with the population trend.

 

The population of breeding greylag geese has increased by 179% in the last 20 years and the breeding mallard population has increased by 20% in the same time period. For greylag geese in the period from 2005-2011 there were 349 licences issued to destroy up to 90,448 eggs and 457 licences to shoot or kill by injection 15,647 birds. Most of these licences were to prevent serious damage to crops or to protect air safety. For mallard in the period from 2005-2011 there were 78 licences issued to destroy up to 32,440 eggs and 30 licences to shoot or kill by injection 2,471 birds. Most of these licences were to protect public health and air safety.

 

The issue is not whether the population of greylag or mallard will be affected by changes in the administration of wildlife licensing, the issue is that a small number of people dont like the idea of species of wildfowl being on a general licence beause of their pre-conceived ideas about it being a 'vermin list'. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinion and to relate that in a response to a consultation, but rallying others to their cause based on misinformation about impacts on population are misplaced to say the least.

 

The consultation is also taking views on whether the robin can also be added to the same general licences as mallard and greylags.

 

But wot numbers were the Greylags at in 2005 it is very easy to get a 179% rise in a small population, and surely the fact that wildfowlers have been very busy trying to re establish breeding populations of greylags and with out all there work there probably would not be the rise in numbers.

 

As for Mallards have the Basc not been pushing the duck tubes for long enough, so why are u really trying to encourage them on 1 hand but put them on the general licence too. Do u want us to all go out and rip down our nesting tubes?

 

Both the above species are Amber listed does that not mean there is cause for concern about there numbers?

 

A lot is made about canada numbers in the bag returns, but surely the fact that geese are migratory will man the bag returns are of little use. U could effectively shoot all the local breeding population out but still see a similar ammount in the national bag returns if breeding welll in other countries, althou some local returns could be severly hit.

 

If this is the precedent NE is setting fair enough, are Basc/NE now saying that any species that shows a population rise of 179% over 20years and cause crop/environmental/wildlife conservation damage should be on the GL that would put cormorants, Buzzards and Sparrowhawks Red Kites possibly even Sea eagles will all have increased there population by more than 179% and could be argued shoud be on the GL for conservation/wild bird protection.

 

The problem is the paperwork but we're going round in circles, BASC think it is acceptable for the sake of 30-50 llicences a year to put 2 amber listed species on the GL,

 

WHY not actually tackle the ridiculas problem head on of too much red tape and make the application process easier, esp a repeat licence. That way it help fishermen/river keepers for the many (10x) applications they submit for cormorants. I would guess more of the Basc members will fish than are wildfowlers or farmers for that matter

 

It's not just about the inclusion of Greylag and Mallard, wot about the wording of the shoo before u shoot? the changes to checking crow traps once a day at sunset to once every 24hrs which could be potentially worse for caught birds, calls for ID numbers on corvid traps like in scotland.

And thats off the top of my head, think also a proposal like was rushed into scotland this jan that if NE SUSPECT u may have commited a wildlife crime u can not use the GL full stop (ie no corvid, pigeon control)

i said SUSPECT not prove or guilty off any crimes

 

All a lot different from when the general licence first came in. And every year exra layers of red tape are worked in

It is red tape in general u should be fighting not adding species to GL so they can think up more red tape to keep themselves in a job shuffling paper for the other SL species

[The Croc]

Conor your saying (again) Canada numbers are increasing and bag numbers are up?

Look at the start of the Canada's and the GL threads here and the Fowling forum, members from around the country have all said the opposite.

Are these Wildfowlers mistaken in their ability to count birds?

 

 

There's more SLs issued for Brent and Cormorant's why aren't they on the proposal for the GL...... That would save time and red tape for farmers and landowners, or am I missing something

[scotslad]

I think we're all missing something especially bASC, something or someone is driving this, and i don't believe it is farmers for 1 minute.

 

Certain conservtion charities must be driving this it makes no sense otherwise.

Is anyone on here a member of RSP/WWT wot is there offical line on this? Wot are they publishing in there newsletters/magazines?

 

I have no doubt that if/when numbers drop and RSPB/WWT members become upset those nasty farmers and shooters will have the blame laid firmly at there door and very publicly knowing them

[Kes]

Interesting that Jays and Jackdaws as well as hooded crows are to be taken off the GL ?

For a complex consultation (48 pages) and for a valid response to be made, a good deal of effort is required and confirmation that you have understood fully that which you are commenting on.

The proposals for special licencing of Lesser Black Backed gulls (because they seem to be linked to Herring gulls) is unusual but could equally apply to Mallard.

Proposals to allow controls on Sacred Ibis and Indian House crow seem a little premature but maybe, as it says, they will set up colonies in UK as they have in France.

A simple method to respond is NOT available sadly, I had hoped BASC might produce a pro-forma and recommendations for all proposals - I may have missed it but the e-mail I received didnt mention it.

Having lost my first detailed posts on this I am keeping this short. Suffice it to say Greylags I dont believe merit a change to general licence since SL controls could be sufficient if EN were more helpful.

Finally, I know badgers can be controlled by special licence under the self-same conditions as are 'guiding' the consultation How many licences have been issued and are we seeing a change to ensure fewer licences are issued for destruction of any 'non general licence' species by a self-styled 'conservation' body ?

I am left feeling unrepresented - sadly, but if anyone knows of a quick method to respond please advise.

[House Boat]

As I understand this this totaly being driven by NE, there budget and staffing levels have been cut by over 50 percent and this is very much a money saving exercise on there behalf. The few farmers that apply for licenses have no problem in geting them in fact my secretary has a license and informs me once you have one it is very easy to re new, so we don't have a mythical problem with farmers watching thousands of acres beings destroyed and can't do anything about it, "they can and do". As for mallard (an amber list bird) this is pearly to give local authority's the means of destroying thousands of eggs and nests on local parks (on a water quality issue) were mallard are regularly fed by the local public. So farmers have no real issue, local authorities need to educate the public about feeding ducks (insedently my on local authority SELL food to the public to feed ducks). So who needs to reduce red tape/costs? Call me a cynic but maybe the head of NE (who incidently had a cosy dinner and chat with several council members recently "so I'm led to believe").

Edited May 11, 2014 by House Boat

[Conor O'Gorman]

A general observation - we are all perfectly entitled to own opinion and to relate that in a response to a consultation, but small numbers of people rallying others to their cause, as some have on this thread, based on misinformation about impacts on population are misplaced to say the least. Perhaps worth adding that the consultation is also taking views on whether the robin can also be added to the same general licences as is proposed for mallard and greylags.

 

Another general observation if I may is that numbers of wildlfowl at local level can vary hugely over time with myriad causes, but if a club or syndicate feels that their wildfowling opportunities are being diminished because of the actions of their neighbours then perhaps its worth exploring solutions with those neighbours. BASC local teams are there to help. However, this consultation is at national level.

 

Our recent focus on the consultation is about the need for general licences to be simplified, perhaps one area we can all agree on.

 

BASC calls for general licences to be simplified

General licences were introduced more than 20 years ago as a legal necessity to comply with European law. The reasons were complex but the principle was simple – to permit people to continue to carry out necessary control with no added burdens. As with the quarry seasons people only needed to know what species were on the list.

 

However, following two decades of gold-plating the general licences in England are now so complex that they are confusing to the average user.

 

The 48 pages of proposed changes in this consultation would make the terms and conditions even more complex while also making it a legal requirement for users to have read and understood up to ten pages of legal text in each general licence. In essence Natural England is continuing the trend of its predecessors in shifting national legal responsibilities onto licence users.

 

BASC believes in reducing red tape for shooting.

 

The situation today is far removed from 1992 when Ministers assured stakeholders that the introduction of general licences was a legal device but one which would continue to allow necessary control with no added burdens.

 

The general licences need only to list the species legally affected and the legally permitted methods – all on a single page.

[derbyduck]

page 11 BASC magazine Shooting and Conservation may isue , Belarus grant will help uk wildfowl , WHCT has given a grant to restore floodplain on selected sites in Belarus,the money will help restore 500 hectares of open floodplain providing better habitat for INPORTANT UK QUARY SPECIES SUCH AS GREYLAG GEESE, MALLARD, PINTAIL, WIGEON AND TEAL. why ?

 

 

What is this realy about ? there is more to this than is being told, I am not as educated as some of the well paid people who are enployed to represent basc members but I can smell when the brown stuff is being pushed behind the door !

[panoma1]

Interesting you should mention lead shot Kes,,,our current CEO is taking a much harder stance in the defence of lead than the last one...

And the last one is still on the lead ammunition group.........................the new CEO isn't, so who's voice is being heard?

[Kes]

"Perhaps worth adding that the consultation is also taking views on whether the robin can also be added to the same general licences as is proposed for mallard and greylags".

 

That is true but the same proposal also includes the Pied Wagtail and Starling (red list) and, as far as I can see the inclusion is proposed simply for birds which nest in places and compromise food safety (etc.) the same (exactly) could not be said of the mallard or especially the greylag, so perhaps there is a difference, even though the mechanism of control proposed appears to be the same.

 

No comments on the Jay or hooded crow or jackdaw - what is BASC's position on those - I would appreciate knowing if those derogations have been agreed/negotiated/recommended/not recommended.

The simplification of the GL is unlikely to happen in my view since that also is being used as a means of control.

I shall measure BASC on its success in this singular recommendation.

[harrycatcat1]

page 11 BASC magazine Shooting and Conservation may isue , Belarus grant will help uk wildfowl , WHCT has given a grant to restore floodplain on selected sites in Belarus,the money will help restore 500 hectares of open floodplain providing better habitat for INPORTANT UK QUARY SPECIES SUCH AS GREYLAG GEESE, MALLARD, PINTAIL, WIGEON AND TEAL. why ?

 

 

What is this realy about ? there is more to this than is being told, I am not as educated as some of the well paid people who are enployed to represent basc members but I can smell when the brown stuff is being pushed behind the door !

 

Good point, well spotted I had not seen that

 

Regards

 

H