Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[solway pink]

Sorry I'm a bit late on this guys but don't come on here often. In post 332 David states that all wildfowling club chairman were written to in regards to this subject. I am chairman of a club on the Solway affiliated to Basc with a little over 150 members. I can guarantee I have not been written to regarding this subject once.

 

I have emailed NE and Basc stating my own personal views, receiving only a standard reply back that everyone else appears to have had.

 

I think Basc made their mind up about this long ago and no matter what we say it ain't going to change their mind.

 

Regards

Davy

[Donkey]

The National Gamekeepers Organisation are not the biggest organisation out there but state on there web site

Approximately £3.50 goes to pay the insurance per member from the £40 membership

It even goes on to state who the underwriter is

Donkey

[David BASC]

Davy,

 

A few posts later I confirmed that the letter had been sent to Club secretaries and prime contacts, my error in saying Chairman, apologies

 

David

[kent]

Re Insurance, if BASC was amalgamated with other orgs, as per my post above Insurance based on Grandalf's suggestion could actually reduce.

Lead is the next issue and we have seen BAC's position. All the posts I have seen now, including Kents are losing the will to do something. ow many years before someone actually does something to make a consolidated voice for field sports, As before when I quoted Tacitus, singly we will be overcome as a signle voice the power and presence of that organisation would be heard and more controls would fall to members. If nobody is prepared to psuh for this, then we all know what the result will be and in the future when someone ask's we can all say we knew it,we expected it and we got it, sitting on hands is certain death for shooting. But who am I to ask you to look at oursleves and weep?

I'm out.

 

I can assure you I have not lost the will to do something. Remember despite BASCs best efforts to scupper things for our Greylag the decision has not been made yet. Do we all leave BASC? do we change BASC? How do we do it?

I am 90% sure a lot of BASC employees are not behind this and I don't buy the fact that the board / council makes its own free choices independently of the CEO and other senior staff etc. I have experience of boards sitting for charities bigger and smaller than BASC and have never found it to be the case before. There is a problem, its been exposed, it will be remembered although as yet no plan can be formed further on the Greylag issue till NE makes it intentions clear.

I admire the likes of David and Connor, look at the jobs BASC are recruiting for currently and what is on offer to BASC employees. They put up a fair fight here under overwhelming odds well out of std working hours (remember theirs is the official view they are told to have, if they agree or not). Far better to change BASC, we can but suspect were the real issues are within those halls at present

[David BASC]

Kent,

 

I am glad you are on the mend and I hope your relative recovers , my thoughts are with them.

 

Please lets not forget, that we are ALL BASC, its not just staff, council or members, we are all in it together.

 

Yes we will have disagreements from time to time but lets work through it.

 

I have no magic answer that can solve everything on one go, but I am sure if we stick together we will become bigger and stronger.

 

How do we change BASC? Well perhaps look at it as how do we evolve BASC rather than making sweeping changes - either way the answer is through following the rules of the Association, getting involved in elections for Council and making proposals at AGM and so on.

 

David

Edited May 23, 2014 by David BASC

[spartina2]

Disagree, evolution will do nothing but maintain and reinforce the status quo.

[David BASC]

Regardless of whether we agree on the term 'evolving' BASC into a bigger and better organisation, my point remains, we are all BASC and together we can make BASC a stronger organisation

 

David

[greenshank1]

As a BASC member north of the border I have followed this thread with real interest and understand the real concerns that have been raised both about greys going on the GL and the stance BASC are taking.

 

It's different up here but there are concerns that as the geese numbers increase the respect they are shown decreases year on year.

 

David do you think BASC could dedicate a full piece in the next edition of shooting and conservation and outline their stance and long term policies for wildfowl and wildfowling North and South of the border ?

[kent]

Kent,

 

I am glad you are on the mend and I hope your relative recovers , my thoughts are with them.

 

Please lets not forget, that we are ALL BASC, its not just staff, council or members, we are all in it together.

 

Yes we will have disagreements from time to time but lets work through it.

 

I have no magic answer that can solve everything on one go, but I am sure if we stick together we will become bigger and stronger.

 

How do we change BASC? Well perhaps look at it as how do we evolve BASC rather than making sweeping changes - either way the answer is through following the rules of the Association, getting involved in elections for Council and making proposals at AGM and so on.

 

David

 

She is out of hospital as of yesterday and fast recovering use of her LHS, 33 years is no age for this in a fit and healthy person., thanks

 

I have serious reservations about the whole council thing, is that the broken bit? Or is it just a red Herring? Either way when a confirmed anti foxhunter can stand without the voters knowing this salient fact its dangerous territory to my mind.

 

NE is yet to decide though its quite telling someone mentioning WWT have spoken out against the GL proposals, not sure of the facts but if its the case but it speaks volumes if its true. Perhaps wildfowlers might be better represented by the WWT? We seem to have more in common than we do with BASC at present

[David BASC]

Delighted to hear she is on the road to recovery, very good news indeed.

 

The more members that get involved in the election of Council members the better, and of course remember any member can stand, full details sent to members early each year.

 

David

[anser2]

The big problem over the greylag issue is how did BASC advise the council and was it on this advise that the council acted. If BASC staff did advise the council that putting greylag on the GL was acceptable ,then what faith can wildfowlers have in BASC.

 

If the council made a desision on their own behalf then there is a chance in time the council can be changed , but if the action it took was recomended by BASC staff then there is little hope wildfowling will receve the support it needs any longer from BASC. It seems that BASC is setting more store on what farmers and NE want than its wildfowling members. So perhaps its time we sought a new organisation that will work for wildfowlers and not against them. Perhaps its a sign of the times , but clearly moral ethics have left BASC and they are chasing the big bucks the wildfowling community cannot provide.

 

If a new shooting organisation came into being that shared my moral view of shooting I would leave BASC instantly . It no longer fights for the ideals that the old WAGBI fought for nor my shooting values.

 

There is a quote in every copy Shooting Times "The wildlife of today is not ours to dispose of as we please. We have to account for it to those who come after" King George 6th . A pity BASC did not think about it when they made their policy to support the killing of breeding greylag geese , a policy that was decided on poorly researched data and with little regard of the opinions of many of its members.

Edited May 24, 2014 by anser2

[anser2]

double post

Edited May 24, 2014 by anser2

[Kes]

If a little oil is poured on these troubled waters, it will all go away - wont it ?

 

It is perhaps time shooters got off their collective knees, decided what they want and need, and went for it, whatever 'it' was.

Evolution, revolution, root and branch recreation, explosive realignment. Time is something we do NOT have. WILL we do not have, we therefore get what we deserve..

[kent]

Delighted to hear she is on the road to recovery, very good news indeed.

 

The more members that get involved in the election of Council members the better, and of course remember any member can stand, full details sent to members early each year.

 

David

 

Recent happenings have non the less highlighted the fact that they get so many words to say good about themselves and the other candidates cannot bring anything bad to light (effectively anything can be hidden) recently proved. Lets face it Hitler and Natzi Germany could look good if you only represented one page of highly selected text about them.

 

Do we know the percentage of members who vote?

[kent]

The big problem over the greylag issue is how did BASC advise the council and was it on this advise that the council acted. If BASC staff did advise the council that putting greylag on the GL was acceptable ,then what faith can wildfowlers have in BASC.

 

If the council made a desision on their own behalf then there is a chance in time the council can be changed , but if the action it took was recomended by BASC staff then there is little hope wildfowling will receve the support it needs any longer from BASC. It seems that BASC is setting more store on what farmers and NE want than its wildfowling members. So perhaps its time we sought a new organisation that will work for wildfowlers and not against them. Perhaps its a sign of the times , but clearly moral ethics have left BASC and they are chasing the big bucks the wildfowling community cannot provide.

 

If a new shooting organisation came into being that shared my moral view of shooting I would leave BASC instantly . It no longer fights for the ideals that the old WAGBI fought for nor my shooting values.

 

There is a quote in every copy Shooting Times "The wildlife of today is not ours to dispose of as we please. We have to account for it to those who come after" King George 6th . A pity BASC did not think about it when they made their policy to support the killing of breeding greylag geese , a policy that was decided on poorly researched data and with little regard of the opinions of many of its members.

 

I suspect very, very strongly the council have no real control. Our problem might be the generation that followed the given quote seems fast being replaced with the "use it up throw it away and blame someone else" types

[Grandalf]

The big problem over the greylag issue is how did BASC advise the council and was it on this advise that the council acted. If BASC staff did advise the council that putting greylag on the GL was acceptable ,then what faith can wildfowlers have in BASC.

 

If the council made a desision on their own behalf then there is a chance in time the council can be changed , but if the action it took was recomended by BASC staff then there is little hope wildfowling will receve the support it needs any longer from BASC. It seems that BASC is setting more store on what farmers and NE want than its wildfowling members. So perhaps its time we sought a new organisation that will work for wildfowlers and not against them. Perhaps its a sign of the times , but clearly moral ethics have left BASC and they are chasing the big bucks the wildfowling community cannot provide.

 

If a new shooting organisation came into being that shared my moral view of shooting I would leave BASC instantly . It no longer fights for the ideals that the old WAGBI fought for nor my shooting values.

 

There is a quote in every copy Shooting Times "The wildlife of today is not ours to dispose of as we please. We have to account for it to those who come after" King George 6th . A pity BASC did not think about it when they made their policy to support the killing of breeding greylag geese , a policy that was decided on poorly researched data and with little regard of the opinions of many of its members.

 

Anser2, you have, regrettably, hit the nail right on the head.

Having been a member of WAGBI then BASC for more years than I care to remember, I feel totally let down by the organisation that is supposed to support me.

Impossible to calculate how many hours I have spent trying to improve the breeding chances of greylags and mallard and now I find that the one group of people I trusted to support my efforts have shot me in the back.

We tried but they just wouldn't listen. I cannot imagine why the council made the decision that they did. As you say, if it was on the advice of the 'experts' employed by BASC then the organisation is finished for everything but game shooters.

[Kes]

 

Anser2, you have, regrettably, hit the nail right on the head.

Having been a member of WAGBI then BASC for more years than I care to remember, I feel totally let down by the organisation that is supposed to support me.

Impossible to calculate how many hours I have spent trying to improve the breeding chances of greylags and mallard and now I find that the one group of people I trusted to support my efforts have shot me in the back.

We tried but they just wouldn't listen. I cannot imagine why the council made the decision that they did. As you say, if it was on the advice of the 'experts' employed by BASC then the organisation is finished for everything but game shooters.

What worries me most is who decided to advise Council and why. Full-time staff? The Chairman, on the advice of full time staff? the CEO on the advice of full-time staff? Therein lies a crux. Is the organisation, its chairman, its CEO or its fulltime staff sufficiently out of touch with KNOWN member issues that they allowed this to happen ? It cant have been ignorance - you would change position and apoligise for the oversight, wouldnt you? Or is it arrogance ? Any way you cook it, it doesnt impress.

[David BASC]

Kent, in the 2013 BASC Council election, there were 2406 members who voted.

 

Grandalf and Anser, the full background and source information that Council used to make its decision has been on our website for many weeks.

 

David

[kent]

Kent, in the 2013 BASC Council election, there were 2406 members who voted.

 

Grandalf and Anser, the full background and source information that Council used to make its decision has been on our website for many weeks.

 

David

What is that as a percentage of membership? Seems to show great apathy (on what sort of membership numbers I think BASC has) linked to the suggestion I made about charity boards and councils lack of real clout / importance to policy as previously I suggested?

 

I have still got the view that the decision BASC made could not work in favour of the shooting membership and only against BASC and this is the bit that really puzzles me as it makes the suggestion that some shooters think its good to shoot geese in summer- have things really become that bad within the ranks of so called "sportsmen"? Or is it a hidden plan towards an unknown goal?

[David BASC]

Kent, at the time of the 2013 council elections there were around 130,000 members eligible to vote.

 

In my opinion there is no great demand for people to go goose shooting in the height of summer.

 

As I understand it NE have got to the position of seeing no need to maintain certain goose species on the individual licence as they have got to the point where they will issue such licences almost automatically. When a species gets to this point and other criteria are met, as listed on NE's web site and reiterated on the BASC web site, its NE's position to move them to the general licence. This is a principle that BASC sees as being perfectly sensible.

 

This is normal procedure for NE, and has applied to all the other species that are currently on general licence, but this is revisited regularly to see if the criteria for general licence are still met. If they are not then they are moved back to typically individual licence. Again, this is a principle that BASC sees as being perfectly sensible.

 

David

[Grandalf]

Kent, at the time of the 2013 council elections there were around 130,000 members eligible to vote.

 

In my opinion there is no great demand for people to go goose shooting in the height of summer.

 

As I understand it NE have got to the position of seeing no need to maintain certain goose species on the individual licence as they have got to the point where they will issue such licences almost automatically. When a species gets to this point and other criteria are met, as listed on NE's web site and reiterated on the BASC web site, its NE's position to move them to the general licence. This is a principle that BASC sees as being perfectly sensible.

 

This is normal procedure for NE, and has applied to all the other species that are currently on general licence, but this is revisited regularly to see if the criteria for general licence are still met. If they are not then they are moved back to typically individual licence. Again, this is a principle that BASC sees as being perfectly sensible.

 

David

Sorry David but I can't agree with this.

Most people are so idle, look at the number of BASC members who vote as an example, that they don't apply for licences to shoot things out of season. They probable don't even know that they can. However, once they can just go and shoot things - they will. It is human nature.

Natural England have not had many applications for SL's for geese or mallards. There is no reason to change the law other than to save money and please certain bird groups.

The gravel pits around my area were covered in Canada's once - Not any more because the eggs were pricked when the law was changed.

Now the pits are the breeding grounds for greylags - Well just guess what is going to happen to them.

BASC have got this so wrong that no matter how long you argue, for your employers, that it is the right and proper thing to do - no fowler is going to agree with you.

This goes against everything I have ever worked for in the world of conservation of wildfowl.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Grandalf

[motty]

David, can you please explain why species such as cormorant have not been suggested to be on the GL.

[David BASC]

I have explained the NE strategy for placing species onto the GL or indeed taking them off, to the best of my knowledge this has little to do with the number of applications per se but far more to do with how such applications are reacted to - i.e. typically further investigation needed before grant or grant without further investigation.

 

Who owns the gravel pits you refer to out of interest?

[David BASC]

Motty, No I cant explain why cormorants are not on GL, as far as I can see, it seems NE are still keen to investigate applications for cormorants and will not typically grant an individual licence as a matter of course. As long as this situation continues cormorants cannot move to the GL.

 

David

[spartina2]

Well David BASC you have certainly done your masters bidding, no one can accuse you being lapse in that respect.

 

Sorry David but I can't agree with this.

Most people are so idle, look at the number of BASC members who vote as an example, that they don't apply for licences to shoot things out of season. They probable don't even know that they can. However, once they can just go and shoot things - they will. It is human nature.

Natural England have not had many applications for SL's for geese or mallards. There is no reason to change the law other than to save money and please certain bird groups.

The gravel pits around my area were covered in Canada's once - Not any more because the eggs were pricked when the law was changed.

Now the pits are the breeding grounds for greylags - Well just guess what is going to happen to them.

BASC have got this so wrong that no matter how long you argue, for your employers, that is the right and proper thing to do - no fowler is going to agree with you.

This goes against everything I have ever worked for in the world of conservation of wildfowl.

 

Totally agree. There must be a reason, but one can only come to the conclusion that members are not considered fit enough persons to be told.

 

Lead shot anybody???

Edited May 26, 2014 by spartina2