Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[David BASC]

OK, explain to me please how these people who don't know they can shoot things out of season currently (I assume under individual licence is what you mean), will suddenly be aware of the change to general licence?

 

Do you disagree or perhaps not understand that's its normal NE policy to move species onto the GL, regardless of the total number of applications received for individual licences applied for, when their basic criteria to go onto the GL exist?

 

David

[anser2]

OK, explain to me please how these people who don't know they can shoot things out of season currently (I assume under individual licence is what you mean), will suddenly be aware of the change to general licence?

 

Do you disagree or perhaps not understand that's its normal NE policy to move species onto the GL, regardless of the total number of applications received for individual licences applied for, when their basic criteria to go onto the GL exist?

 

David

 

David I am sure you do not think that the knowledge that greylag are being moved onto the GL is privi to the select few. News travels very fast in the shooting community. When canadas were placed in the GL my ex father in law knew before the order was inacted on january 1st. He was a game shooter , 75 years old , did not have a computer or take the shooting press , was not a member of BASC or and club and yet he knew. It will be the same for greylag.

 

It maybe policy for NE to move species on and off the GL , but its a rare happening.

Edited May 26, 2014 by anser2

[Grandalf]

 

OK, explain to me please how these people who don't know they can shoot things out of season currently (I assume under individual licence is what you mean), will suddenly be aware of the change to general licence?

 

Do you disagree or perhaps not understand that's its normal NE policy to move species onto the GL, regardless of the total number of applications received for individual licences applied for, when their basic criteria to go onto the GL exist?

 

David

 

David I am sure you do not think that the knowledge that greylag are being moved onto the GL is privi to the select few. News travels very fast in the shooting community. When canadas were placed in the GL my ex father in law knew before the order was inacted on january 1st. He was a game shooter , 75 years old , did not have a computer or take the shooting press , was not a member of BASC or and club and yet he knew. It will be the same for greylag.

 

It maybe policy for NE to move species on and off the GL , but its a rare happening.

 

David,

Because I sleep at night Anser2 has answered your question. I agree with his comments entirely. All the trigger happy herberts who do absolutely nothing for conservation will know that they can go and shoot greylags all year round. (I am not suggesting Anser2's ex Father in Law was a trigger happy Herbert). Anyone who has a few ducks on a pond and doesn't like the mess they leave on the grass will know they can wreck the nests and eggs and solve their 'problem'.

Of course NE can change the GL and SL details and species - that is part of their remit.

But, and it is a very big but, BASC did not have to agree with the details so as to make NE and farmers happy.

Shooting and CONSERVATION is the remit of BASC.

I have no problem with BASC agreeing with the simplification of the licences. What all fowlers think is that BASC should have opposed the addition of greylag and mallard to the GL.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Grandalf

[David BASC]

The trigger happy Herbert's still need to comply with the law, and the terms of the General licence and failure to do so could result in a £5000 fine.

 

Take your gravel pit Grandalf, who ever the landowner was must have condoned the actions that resulted in the canada's going, are you sure the same landowner wants to be rid of greylags?

Edited May 27, 2014 by David BASC

[shootingmike]

I'll not admit to having read all 39 pages of this thread but I've read enough. I've been a member of BASC for nearly ten years and all I seem to see them doing is spending money on multiple million pound buildings, glossy publications, organising cookery classes at perfectly kept expensive shooting grounds in the South. Oh, and taking MP's shooting ( which on the face of it makes sense but let's face it, it's probably riddled with corruption and expenses claims).

I've been watching some American duck hunting vids on YouTube lately and whilst I don't like how they slaughter geese at about 5 yards over decoys, I think BASC have a lot to learn from organisations such as Ducks unlimited and delta waterfowl. They have worked with State bodies to secure land, install flood mechanisms, improve breeding habitats and provide real opportunity for real people to go shooting.
It seems BASC are basically moulding themselves into a political faceless body that are only interested in willy waggling with other toffs based on the vast amounts of money in the bank. I'm going to research how the wildfowling club I'm in can move away from BASC and to someone else to provide insurance, because I'm sick of paying for all this glossy unnecessary *****.

[Kes]

How many people have been prosecuted for shooting Canada's outside the terms of the general licence ? How many have been shot under it. Quod erat demonstrandum.

1,2, none?

[David BASC]

Do you have an evidence Kes, in your area, where people have broken the law regarding the GL?

[Kes]

David, my point is, as you well know, that policing of the general licence is difficult, if not impossible.

So anyone who shoots say Canadas on the GL, but not in the strict terms that apply, is not likely to be prosecuted. Hence my question - your answer should have been NONE AFAIAA.

The same applies to Greylag, once they are on, so how can the terms of the GL protect Greylag against shooters who fancy taking a shot ? If the general Licence were as protective as you suggest and inland shooters wont bother with them, how does policing of the general as opposed to Special Licence afford greater or even sufficient protection to the Greylag ?

Sorry I remain unconvinced.

If you say its the fault of game shooters who use lead for wildfowl how can you suggest the Greylag is not at any greater risk by the licence switch, given the 'facts' about lead and the clear implication that they (BADC members presumably) are breaking the current law on lead. I find it mystifying that both opposed facts are used to your (BASC's) apparent advantage. Yet BASC still refuses to accept the 'conservation' viewpoint. Whatever NE says, you could, like other orgs, oppose any change. Chairman doesnt want to?

I freely admit I am now an ex BASC member (or will be after August) so you dont have to answer. The above is firmly my opinion and BASC still fail to admit it was a mistake and farmer and NE are not the main concern here, we have seen their view, sensible protective measures are.

[David BASC]

Kes,

 

I do not dispute that the policing of licences is not easy...if only we had more wildlife crime officers eh?

 

If you make yourself aware of NE's policy on licencing you will see how this is managed from their perspective. One of the key factors will be bird counts...just like it has been with the canda since it went of GL 9 years ago...so trends in populations will be monitored.

 

So I guess we can agree there are few if any prosecutions for wrongful shooting of canadas in the last 9 years, and perhaps you will also agree, as the data is in the public domain, that the canada population has increased over the same period.

 

So we have the situation with canadas over the last 9 years where they are being controlled where farmers want / need under general licence, yet this is not harming the conservation status of the bird.

 

As you say quod erat demonstrandum....

Edited May 27, 2014 by David BASC

[Kes]

David, I would agree with you but my own experience suggests Canada numbers are steady at best and falling perhaps, as other stats suggest, so its a brave conservation organisation that would support putting another goose species on the GL without concrete evidence. Brave or not so intelligent. If we see something we suspect is wrong, is it incorrect to argue that a specialist view (wildfowlers) should be ignored when by all comments, existing controls are manageable.

Please dont quote me NE's views on licencing policy, because some obvious pest species are going the wrong way, that tends to suggest they dont know what they are doing or are Jackdaw numbers/collared dove falling?

They are wrong and BASC is also wrong for not opposing it.

Neither of us will change our position but I am (currently) only a Member -you are an officer defending policy from an organisation which is supposed to reflect Members views.

 

Let us leave it that we agree to disagree I wont shoot any geese out of season (especially with lead shot) and you can be happy about the justifications you have posted on here.

Thank you.

[Grandalf]

The trigger happy Herbert's still need to comply with the law, and the terms of the General licence and failure to do so could result in a £5000 fine.

 

Take your gravel pit Grandalf, who ever the landowner was must have condoned the actions that resulted in the canada's going, are you sure the same landowner wants to be rid of greylags?

The law will be largely ignored because there is no-one there to police it.

If I was a gambling man I would be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that my local gravel pit owners will declare war on the greylags that nest there. The pits are rented by anglers and yachties. The greylags days are numbered if this becomes law.

[David BASC]

Have you discussed this with the owners? if you think they are breaking the law have you reported them?

[Kes]

Have you discussed this with the owners? if you think they are breaking the law have you reported them?

David, come on ?

I despair, people still hunt with dogs, deer etc they are reported, nothing is done. As Mcenroe once put it to an unmpire........

[David BASC]

Fine you may choose to ignore and walk away and blame someone else and go for the self fulfilling prophesy option

 

To suggest 'nothing is done' on wildlife crime is a farcical statement -

 

I was asking Gandalf 2 perfectly reasonable questions - has he discussed it with the owners and (separately for ease) are they breaking the law at present?

 

David

[Terry P]

They will not have to break the law, due to BASC support they will be able to go and legally slaughter them. Grandalf has seen happen with the Canadas and as he has already stated it will probably happen with the greylag.

As for Canada numbers increasing, you keep believing the stats BASC chose to believe, I will believe what I see with my own eyes. I have not shot a Canada on my patch for 2 yrs, the first 2 season in the 25 yrs I have been fowling.

Its pointless having this debate with you really as you are just doing as you are told, where as fowlers are talking from local knowledge on their marshes etc.

Still at least we won't have to shoo before we shoot due to BASC treachery.

[Kes]

David - the implications of your post are distasteful. I have reported a good number of incidents of wildlife crime, have involved the police, waited for poachers etc, have you ? farcical is not a word I would have used but then I am only a member

The difficulty is not reporting it but having enough evidence to prosecute and in the face of often threats made by the law breakers. Thats what was meant and I have never walked away as you so unfortunately put it.

I dont go for self -fulfilling philosophies. I just look at the facts, practicalities and make an informed (I hope) judgement, thats why I am confident BASC are wrong on this because they dont appear to have done so.

[David BASC]

So you choose not to believe the Webs counts- what other national counts can we use please?

 

So if you all now think that my continued input to try and help is pointless I will for the final time drop out from this thread, messenger well and truly shot....

 

You know where I am if anyone needs my help - email or PM.

 

David

[Barls2-9-12]

Over the last few years there has been a large decline in the numbers of Canada geese in the areas which I shoot, these mainly being the medway, swale and parts of Suffolk and Norfolk and Essex. Last season I never had the chance of a shot at a CANADA and it is not like I don’t go out very often as most weeks I am out at least 3 days of the week. Out of a group of 6 friend who I shoot with on a regular basis not one of us shot a Canada last season.

 

Most of the people who I shoot with are far more experienced than myself and can remember times not that long ago when it would be a regular occurrence to have a few Canada’s throughout the season not now. I have been wildfowling since I was old enough to walk down the sea wall with my granddad, dad and uncle I can remember seeing good numbers of Canada geese but when I return to that place if I see two or three then I am very lucky.

 

In the last 5 seasons I have shot two Canada’s, missed the odd one and on two occasions I could of shoot one or two more but already reached my bag limit. If this is anything to go by then I can only see the same thing happening with grey lag geese. It is a sorry state of affairs, if this is not recognised what is likely to happen then it will be the same story for greys.

 

Just hope the RSPB can do something it’s are only hope now..

[anser2]

David , do not go down the road of quoting Webs counts, we have already been over that ground and found conflicting evidence between WeBs counts and Waterways summer counts. Webs is a guide , no more. It does not and cannot cover every water. Indeed for some species ie , mallard , coverage is poor. It may show an increase , but without detailed analysis which BASC did not do , a site that shows a large increase obscure sites that show declines. I am not going to go through all the data again , but read the past posts and somewhere several weeks back I produced the data to show that is happening at major canada sites and within my home county in Norfolk..

Edited May 27, 2014 by anser2

[Terry P]

David , do not go down the road of quoting Webs counts, we have already been over that ground and found conflicting evidence between WeBs counts and Waterways summer counts. Webs is a guide , no more. It does not and cannot cover every water. Indeed for some species ie , mallard , coverage is poor. It may show an increase , but without detailed analysis which BASC did not do , a site that shows a large increase obscure sites that show declines. I am not going to go through all the data again , but read the past posts and somewhere several weeks back I produced the data to show that is happening at major canada sites and within my home county in Norfolk..

 

David. re your question about if I believe your chosen method of counts, well Robert has answered it far better than I could.

[motty]

I saw a lovely bunch of eight greylag goslings with their parents, feeding by the side of a lake, earlier. I sat and watched them for a few minutes, as I believe I may not witness this kind of thing in future. Sad.

[islandgun]

I saw a lovely bunch of eight greylag goslings with their parents, feeding by the side of a lake, earlier. I sat and watched them for a few minutes, as I believe I may not witness this kind of thing in future. Sad.

 

I did the same, 4 young

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just hope the RSPB can do something it’s are only hope now..

 

.

[Penelope]

There are lots of greylag broods on one of the gravel pits near me in the Lea valley. I guess the Lea Valley Parks Authority will be pricking the eggs next year like the do with the canadas, yet cormorants are allowed to proliferate to the detriment of the fish in the river and pits. One pit has a colony of over 100, destroying the trees with their droppings and ravaging the fish stocks and pushing the Herons out through nest site competition..

 

I saw a lovely bunch of eight greylag goslings with their parents, feeding by the side of a lake, earlier. I sat and watched them for a few minutes, as I believe I may not witness this kind of thing in future. Sad.

[Grandalf]

Have you discussed this with the owners? if you think they are breaking the law have you reported them?

Who says they broke the law? I didn't.

[pavman]

There are lots of greylag broods on one of the gravel pits near me in the Lea valley. I guess the Lea Valley Parks Authority will be pricking the eggs next year like the do with the canadas, yet cormorants are allowed to proliferate to the detriment of the fish in the river and pits. One pit has a colony of over 100, destroying the trees with their droppings and ravaging the fish stocks and pushing the Herons out through nest site competition..

 

A very fair point indeed and one that will receive little interest from NE me thinks