Do you really want this lot

[Mungler]

So what political choice do we have? The guaranteed economic disaster of another round of the class obsessed Old Labour Neanderthals - exemplified by the disaster at the Coop and the idea that John Prescott's son should "inherit" his fathers manor; the guaranteed vacuity, irrelevance and incompetence of the Lib Dems, or the self-styled "heir to Blair" and his Etonian pals..?

 

Nothing but "career politicians" is not much of a choice. The fear of giving the people what they want appears to be the result of the tireless social engineering efforts of metropolitan liberal intelligentsia, aka chattering classes and the BBC-Graun media-bubble dwellers - all of whom know far better than the people, and so they they have put a large number of crucial political issues beyond the reach of "popular" debate in the past 20 years.

 

**** it, it's time for a change or an attempt at a change if only to promote change. We need a new type of politician, I don't think UKIP is it, but it's the only 'none of the above' vote that will hit home.

 

A Tory UKIP coalition next.

 

Edit

 

At least the UKIP mood is re-engaging people into politics. I didn't even bother voting last time around - there was no choice and it's more of the same expense thieving nose in the trough professional politicians who haven't had a proper job and haven't had a go at running a business their parents hadn't left them.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Mungler

[FalconFN]

If Ukip win all the seats for britain on the 22nd, Then the government refuses to hold a referendum, will we be left, still in europe but without representation as ukip refuse to vote,

That's my fear.

 

 

Same old, same old.

 

Never mind, not long to go now.

 

I can't wait...can you?

 

 

Like a boss, but not actually a boss.

[poontang]

If Ukip win all the seats for britain on the 22nd, Then the government refuses to hold a referendum, will we be left, still in europe but without representation as ukip refuse to vote,

 

Put it another way.

 

Who will you be voting for in the EU presidential election?

[kdubya]

If Ukip win all the seats for britain on the 22nd, Then the government refuses to hold a referendum, will we be left, still in europe but without representation as ukip refuse to vote,

we are in Europe now without representation we seemingly cannot even negotiate

 

KW

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/460056/NO-negotiation-of-freedom-of-movement-says-defiant-EU-President-Jose-Manuel-Barroso

[FalconFN]

 

Put it another way.

 

Who will you be voting for in the EU presidential election?

How will a vote for UKIP, or anyone else, have any effect on who leads the council??

 

There are 2 issues at play, firstly our future relationship and role within the EU, and secondly our current relationship and role within the EU. A vote for UKIP sends a message, of sorts, to Westminster but it also binds our hands for the next 5 years and means that nobody will be representing our interests - not entirely democratic you could say.

[welsh1]

Vote like a sheeple for more of the same,

 

Or effect change by voting UKIP.

 

you have the choice that is the great thing about a democracy.

 

Unlike the eu who have a president that is unelected by the people,is not interested in the people, and has stated if you don't want it he doesn't care,he will do it anyway.

[FalconFN]

we are in Europe now without representation we seemingly cannot even negotiate

 

KW

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/460056/NO-negotiation-of-freedom-of-movement-says-defiant-EU-President-Jose-Manuel-Barroso

I agree that on some issues the council can overrule the parliament, which is not a good thing, but on most issues the UK have a disproportionate vote in the EP.

[grrclark]

I think that all of British politics has become 'tabloid'. It is all about sensationalism and dumbing down and nothing other than short term popularity point scoring. I think that Nige and his cronies are in the same mould. It is easy to be the outspoken revolutionary when your nuts are not on the stump, for Nige it is win win right now and he doesn't actually have to do anything.

 

My fear is that UKIP do very well in the European Parliament elections and have a substantial representation when they are incredibly unlikely to be able to gain any real foothold in our national government after the next general election. The outcome being that we have a very real disconnect between our national parliament and those representing us in the EU.

 

I agree that this nation needs to stop being apathetic in our approach to politics, that is the only real thing that will get rid of the anodyne career politicians that we have now, maybe the 'protest vote' of a substantial number of people for a party to be considered, rightly or wrongly, more extreme might help in that respect.

 

My gut feeling is that we will increasingly become stuck in the middle for a while yet, i think we will have a more lengthy period of coalitions where no big decisions will be taken or made, that is probably more alarming than anything else.

[poontang]

How will a vote for UKIP, or anyone else, have any effect on who leads the council??

 

There are 2 issues at play, firstly our future relationship and role within the EU, and secondly our current relationship and role within the EU. A vote for UKIP sends a message, of sorts, to Westminster but it also binds our hands for the next 5 years and means that nobody will be representing our interests - not entirely democratic you could say.

 

I'm not talking about voting for UKIP, or any other party for that matter.

 

I'm talking about the vote for president of the EU commission.

 

You must have heard about it? They've just had their 3rd and final presidential debate.

 

The candidates, as I'm sure everyone knows, are (in no particular order):

 

Jean - Claude Juncker

Martin Schulz

Alexis Tsipras

Guy Vehrofstadt

Ska Keller and Jose Bove

 

I was just wondering who people were voting for to take over from Jose Manuel Barroso?

[kdubya]

I agree that on some issues the council can overrule the parliament, which is not a good thing, but on most issues the UK have a disproportionate vote in the EP.

So what vote will you have for the next "president for the next 5 years" and what vote will you have for the 27 or is it 28 commissioners HE or SHE will simply choose, the EU is not democratic it is not now representative, it is an all encompassing monster that is now starting to threaten the very fabric and peace Europe has? if you truly believe in democracy, why are you so worried if the man in the street wants to give a chance to a risky unknown entity rather than suffer the same tripe we have been served up with for year upon year, or is it simply that if 51% of voters dont agree with you then to you that's a protest rather than a democratic decision.

 

 

 

KW

[Fisherman Mike]

 

Put it another way.

 

Who will you be voting for in the EU presidential election

 

 

Him ?.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Fisherman Mike

[poontang]

 

 

Him ?.

 

He's not in the running Mike.

 

I gave the list of candidates a few minutes ago.

 

Have a look and let us know who you think should get the job.

[kdubya]

seeing as you have given us our dummies here's yours it will be well out of the pram shortly he he

 

Edited May 12, 2014 by kdubya

[welsh1]

FM, While i will have a debate and a laugh with you and read your points,sometimes you do yourself no favours,your constant insinuations above about anti Semitism and fascism show a person who has no real argument that they can put so you revert to the lowest denominator.

 

By repeatedly posting on the above points it shows you have no real argument against the posts put to you and have to resort to "gutter tactics" which is where someone who has convincingly lost the argument usually ends up.

 

I believe from other posts that you are intelligent to hold a conversation on line ,but on this subject over two threads you have failed time and time again.

 

Look on the bright side though,by your posts, ukip has been up in the top posts for weeks now (approx 23 pages)and by your efforts you have shown the desperation of people who want the same old same old and are afraid of change,and will resort to any means to achieve it.

 

UKIP salutes you Fishermanmike.

Edited May 12, 2014 by welsh1

[FalconFN]

 

I'm not talking about voting for UKIP, or any other party for that matter.

 

I'm talking about the vote for president of the EU commission.

 

You must have heard about it? They've just had their 3rd and final presidential debate.

 

The candidates, as I'm sure everyone knows, are (in no particular order):

 

Jean - Claude Juncker

Martin Schulz

Alexis Tsipras

Guy Vehrofstadt

Ska Keller and Jose Bove

 

I was just wondering who people were voting for to take over from Jose Manuel Barroso?

This whole thread is about voting UKIP and as we don't have a direct vote, but the person we elect as MEP does have a say (of sorts) I think a more pertinent point is how will UKIP MEPs vote when it is the EP's job to approve or veto the council's appointment? Will they abstain, will they veto or will they just pretend it isn't happening and go on taking a wage for the next 5 years whilst doing sweet FA to alter anything.

 

As I have said before, the EU isn't perfect, or even close, but a vote for UKIP in the EU elections is a negative vote, it is an anti-vote and it will not change a thing in Europe or at home, and it certainly won't represent anyone but UKIPs interests. If UKIP start getting seats in the UK parliament, then you will see the other parties change tack.

[Gimlet]

If Ukip win all the seats for britain on the 22nd, Then the government refuses to hold a referendum, will we be left, still in europe but without representation as ukip refuse to vote,

 

Far from it. The rise of Ukip and the elevation of Euroscepticism to mainstream politics means that British withdrawal is now a very real possibility regardless of the number of seats Ukip holds whether in Brussels or Westminster. Britain's innately reluctant Europeanism was once a thing to be laughed and sneered at by Europhiles and Eurocrats. They take it seriously now. If Britain really were to leave the EU no intelligent economist seriously believes the country would wither and die. Though plenty of politicians want the British people to believe that to frighten them away from taking such a step. A successful Britain outside the EU represents a nuclear nightmare for EU architects. It would burst a dam. This gives Britain far more leverage within Europe, not less. It doesn't matter who exerts the pressure, Ukip, Tories or anyone else. That lever is now firmly embedded in the EU machinery. Paradoxically Ukip may strengthen Cameron's hand. His own policy of obedient Europhilia guaranteed a deaf ear in Brussels.

There was a very good article by David Goodhart in the Sunday Times Review today (and that isn't a phrase I would ever have expected to write) about how Britain has failed in its EU foreign policy for the last 20 years by failing to promote and lead an "outer ring" group of European states who will never become European integrationists, despite having plenty of like-minded allies across the continent. ( I wish I could post a decent link but the Times wants you to pay a subscription to read it. But for what its worth here it is:http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/newsreview/features/article1408795.ece )

Its a highly salient argument, though I would say Britain failed by not treating the EU as foreign policy in the first place. I agree with much of what Goodhart says, but so in fact does Ukip and Farage. I find it extraordinary that they are the only party actively promoting Britain's EU membership to be replaced by membership of EFTA alongside Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The only point on which I disagree with Goodhart is that this non-federal alliance requires pooled sovereignty. That is an oxymoronic concept. And empirically unnecessary. Nations beyond the EU bubble don't need to pool sovereignty to cooperate internationally. We have not been required to surrender our nation status to be members of NATO nor to hold a seat at the UN or to be a member of the G8. And we do not need to surrender sovereignty to be a member of a free trade alliance and neither does anyone else. That is the message we should be taking to Europe and it is in fact the message Farage is trying to communicate but its getting lost in hysterical rhetoric about racism and turning our backs on the world and similar uncomprehending nonsense.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Gimlet

[FalconFN]

by your efforts you have shown the desperation of people who want the same old same old and are afraid of change,and will resort to any means to achieve it.

 

 

With all due respect, I don't believe that isn't actually the case for most people. Most folk are heartily sick of the incumbents and in politics in general but, and here is the important bit, they also find the 'only alternative' just as repugnant - if not more so. Most people aren't desperate to keep the status quo, instead they have a healthy skepticism for snake-oil salesmen that promise all sorts but tend to deliver nothing. That is why the recurrent theme in these threads is essentially 'I don't like the EU/immigration - I'll take a punt on UKIP' - it may have a flamboyant, silk-shirted jockey but it's a pretty poor 100-1 nag to gamble on.

 

(Sorry, should have said in my opinion)

[FalconFN]

 

Far from it. The rise of Ukip and the elevation of Euroscepticism to mainstream politics means that British withdrawal is now a very real possibility regardless of the number of seats Ukip holds whether in Brussels or Westminster.

So, to ask the obvious question, why then hog-tie the little democratic power we have in the EU by voting UKIP?

Edited May 12, 2014 by FalconFN

[grrclark]

With all due respect, I don't believe that isn't actually the case for most people. Most folk are heartily sick of the incumbents and in politics in general but, and here is the important bit, they also find the 'only alternative' just as repugnant - if not more so. Most people aren't desperate to keep the status quo, instead they have a healthy skepticism for snake-oil salesmen that promise all sorts but tend to deliver nothing. That is why the recurrent theme in these threads is essentially 'I don't like the EU/immigration - I'll take a punt on UKIP' - it may have a flamboyant, silk-shirted jockey but it's a pretty poor 100-1 nag to gamble on.

 

(Sorry, should have said in my opinion)

I am largely in agreement with that.

 

I don't think political apathy and feeling disaffected with the current political landscape is unique to Britain either, almost every major mature democratic society is suffering and becoming stagnant

[welsh1]

 

Far from it. The rise of Ukip and the elevation of Euroscepticism to mainstream politics means that British withdrawal is now a very real possibility regardless of the number of seats Ukip holds whether in Brussels or Westminster. Britain's innately reluctant Europeanism was once a thing to be laughed and sneered at by Europhiles and Eurocrats. They take it seriously now. If Britain really were to leave the EU no intelligent economist seriously believes the country would wither and die. Though plenty of politicians want the British people to believe that to frighten them away from taking such a step. A successful Britain outside the EU represents a nuclear nightmare for EU architects. It would burst a dam. This gives Britain far more leverage within Europe, not less. It doesn't matter who exerts the pressure, Ukip, Tories or anyone else. That lever is now firmly embedded in the EU machinery. Paradoxically Ukip may strengthen Cameron's hand. His own policy of obedient Europhilia guaranteed a deaf ear in Brussels.

There was a very good article by David Goodhart in the Sunday Times Review today (and that isn't a phrase I would ever have expected to write) about how Britain has failed in its EU foreign policy for the last 20 years by failing to promote and lead an "outer ring" group of European states who will never become European integrationists, despite having plenty of like-minded allies across the continent. ( I wish I could post a decent link but the Times wants you to pay a subscription to read it. But for what its worth here it is:http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/newsreview/features/article1408795.ece )

Its a highly salient argument, though I would say Britain failed by not treating the EU as foreign policy in the first place. I agree with much of what Goodhart says, but so in fact does Ukip and Farage. I find it extraordinary that they are the only party actively promoting Britain's EU membership to be replaced by membership of EFTA alongside Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The only point on which I disagree with Goodhart is that this non-federal alliance requires pooled sovereignty. That is an oxymoronic concept. And empirically unnecessary. Nations beyond the EU bubble don't need to pool sovereignty to cooperate internationally. We have not been required to surrender our nation status to be members of NATO nor to hold a seat at the UN or to be a member of the G8. And we do not need to surrender sovereignty to be a member of a free trade alliance and neither does anyone else. That is the message we should be taking to Europe and it is in fact the message Farage is trying to communicate but its getting lost in hysterical rhetoric about racism and turning our backs on the world and similar uncomprehending nonsense.

Interesting and well put.

 

With all due respect, I don't believe that isn't actually the case for most people. Most folk are heartily sick of the incumbents and in politics in general but, and here is the important bit, they also find the 'only alternative' just as repugnant - if not more so. Most people aren't desperate to keep the status quo, instead they have a healthy skepticism for snake-oil salesmen that promise all sorts but tend to deliver nothing. That is why the recurrent theme in these threads is essentially 'I don't like the EU/immigration - I'll take a punt on UKIP' - it may have a flamboyant, silk-shirted jockey but it's a pretty poor 100-1 nag to gamble on.

 

(Sorry, should have said in my opinion)

While i can see your points, ukip cannot be put in the category of promising something and delivering nothing at this stage, only time will tell on that score,if nothing else a vote for ukip will send shock waves across the other parties,and hopefully start a new era in politics where people work for the people, not self serving career politicians.

[Psyxologos]

A vote for UKIP sends a message, of sorts, to Westminster but it also binds our hands for the next 5 years and means that nobody will be representing our interests - not entirely democratic you could say.

 

This, I believe, summarizes the point perfectly. Voting for a political party (I use the term with some hesitation, as I do not believe a bunch of people who sound like a broken record trying to convince us that the one and same thing they keep repeating is some sort of panacea to all maladies) that its fundamental 'policy' is to abstain from every single vote or procedure that would, in their eyes, legitimize the role of the EU as a political entity is not only dangerous and short sighted, but lacks logic, any way you look at it.

 

I agree there are some severe issues with the way the commission (NOT the EU) runs its business; but believing that the only way to sort it out is by electing people who openly and proudly advertise their decision not to engage in any way with the political arena they are voted in (other than cashing their cheques and employing their foreign wife as their secretary, of course) is nothing less than childish.

[Gimlet]

So, to ask the obvious question, why then hog-tie the little democratic power we have in the EU by voting UKIP?

 

We have no democratic power in Europe. The EU and its paper Parliament is not constructed in such a way. The EU Parliament is not a forum in which member states are democratically represented.That is not its function. It is an invited audience assembled to observe and rubber stamp the primary workings of the EU Commission and sell the results back to national electorates. At best the EP is a disparate multiplicity of fragile coalitions scrabbling for temporary advantage with no coherent direction or accountability. It is a crucible where national interest is dissolved not represented.

[islandgun]

 

This, I believe, summarizes the point perfectly. Voting for a political party (I use the term with some hesitation, as I do not believe a bunch of people who sound like a broken record trying to convince us that the one and same thing they keep repeating is some sort of panacea to all maladies) that its fundamental 'policy' is to abstain from every single vote or procedure that would, in their eyes, legitimize the role of the EU as a political entity is not only dangerous and short sighted, but lacks logic, any way you look at it.

 

I agree there are some severe issues with the way the commission (NOT the EU) runs its business; but believing that the only way to sort it out is by electing people who openly and proudly advertise their decision not to engage in any way with the political arena they are voted in (other than cashing their cheques and employing their foreign wife as their secretary, of course) is nothing less than childish.

I am convinced that Europe is flawed, I'm pretty well convinced that the UK would be better off out of it, I'm sure UKIP could be instrumental in achieving it, I worry alot about the no vote stance and do not want to be governed by UKIP. I expect I wont know who to vote for until the 22nd, keep the discussion going

[Dekers]

Don't you just love political threads!

[Fisherman Mike]

FM, While i will have a debate and a laugh with you and read your points,sometimes you do yourself no favours,your constant insinuations above about anti Semitism and fascism show a person who has no real argument that they can put so you revert to the lowest denominator.

 

By repeatedly posting on the above points it shows you have no real argument against the posts put to you and have to resort to "gutter tactics" which is where someone who has convincingly lost the argument usually ends up.

 

I believe from other posts that you are intelligent to hold a conversation on line ,but on this subject over two threads you have failed time and time again.

 

Look on the bright side though,by your posts, ukip has been up in the top posts for weeks now (approx 23 pages)and by your efforts you have shown the desperation of people who want the same old same old and are afraid of change,and will resort to any means to achieve it.

 

UKIP salutes you Fishermanmike.

Thanks,

 

Not wishing to patronise you, but surely you and others must see, and most fundamentally, that if you take Farage away UKIP will capitulate and pretty damn quickly at that... You keep on about change but UKIP aren't going to give you that.... they wont even come close.

 

I dare say they will do well in the Euro elections and essentially and paradoxically UKIP voters who want change in Europe will be voting for the parties own demise...its a kind of political suicide in a way.

 

Vote UKIP, get the ascendancy in Europe, Cameron holds a Referendum, we vote to withdraw, UKIP MEP,s made redundant, Farage defects to Natural England, UKIP disappears for ever and ever...and the wheels on the bus go round and round...

 

If you want real change in Europe to the benefit UK as a whole, including securing trade opportunity, Jobs, and reducing immigration ..voting Conservative in the Euro elections is the only way to do it... even if like me, it will just be a protest vote.

 

You all know it makes sense...and is suspect even Gimlet will agree with me.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Fisherman Mike