FAC advice

[Zetter]

Hi All

 

I have approached one of my permissions to see if he would be receptive to me going for FAC on there to get a bit more range on the bunnines. However information recieved from the farmer indicates that there may be an issue with the land being cleared for rimfires due to footpaths and a major road running along the bottom of the permission.

 

I know the only certain way is to stick the FAC in and get the land check (this may take a while as its in a different county from me).

But does anyone have any experience of how I would fair if I was to lower my expectations a bit and punt for FAC air to give me the bonus of a bit more range and flatter trajectory in .22. Do the FEOs give a bit more leeway on FAC air for smaller permissions? Or is it best once confirming with the farmer to put in for .22LR, .17HMR and FAC air and see what gets knocked back?

 

 

Cheers in advance

 

Neil

 

[jay222]

Just go for it the worst they can say is no, if you explain during interview that you are aware of the hazards and will take suitable precautions they should be ok about it. Most land has footpaths on it and roads nearby

[Zetter]

Cheers Jay

 

I am having a chat again with the farmer in the next week or so after he has had a think about it. It was an odd comment as he seemed to think after his own experience with his HMR that I would be ok for .22LR but they may kick back the .17HMR. I found this a bit of an odd one as from reading the boards here a lot of forces prefer HMR to LR at the moment so if they would grant LR I would have thought HMR would be ok as well?

 

Neil

[kent]

Practically all open farm land has footpaths some place and practically all walkers cant read maps. If it had no road near the farm how might the owner go anyplace? Consideration of the risk factors is more important.

 

1. don't shoot were you cannot see is safe and has a good backstop and backdrop should something bad happen (nobody can see rock just under the surface or a muddy coloured stone at 100 yards)

 

2. consider people who cant read maps or don't care to read them and trespassers.

 

3. if the landowner ventures an opinion he doubts it safe then the feo is unlikely to pass it, choose some place else for your first application

[Zetter]

Hi Kent

 

Its a bit of an odd one really the farmer has a HMR but as the comment above seemed to have had a bit of a time getting it cleared. If its a no go I will investigate other avenues.

 

Neil

[kent]

Hi Kent

 

Its a bit of an odd one really the farmer has a HMR but as the comment above seemed to have had a bit of a time getting it cleared. If its a no go I will investigate other avenues.

 

Neil

If its been cleared for HMR I should be surprised if they take another look for .22LR there is no difference in assessment or rather there shouldn't be

[Foxwit]

I have a 160 acre perm that is covered in paths and has an a road running through the middle of it. Its been cleared for full bore as there is safe shooting on it. I agreed with others if its cleared for .17hmr there should not be a problem. From the way you word it it sounds like its the land owner doesn't want you with fac on there?

[webber]

If the land is cleared for the farmers .17 HMR then the land has been cleared for FAC end of.

 

You need your written permission from your land owner and put the application in.

 

webber

[kent]

If the land is cleared for the farmers .17 HMR then the land has been cleared for FAC end of.

 

You need your written permission from your land owner and put the application in.

 

webber

 

We need a bit of care with that as it depends how its cleared if it says up to .17 HMR it is not cleared for all FAC, I have seen some funny clearances in the past

[Zetter]

Next time I am up I will have a better chat with the farmer and get some clarification.

Its not a case of the farmer does want me with FAC on there as he is a straight talking guy and he would just say no which would have been fine with me as its his land and he is letting us use air rifle on it.

I just wonder if as Kent says Cambs have put an odd stipulation on it if it is a no go with Rimfire I was just wondering on FAC air or does it all get lumped in the same.

[Redgum]

 

We need a bit of care with that as it depends how its cleared if it says up to .17 HMR it is not cleared for all FAC, I have seen some funny clearances in the past

 

Yes that is an interesting one, because its cleared for hmr would it automatically be cleared for all rimfire or would someone in the FA dept see the hmr as a lower calibre due to round dia.

[kent]

Next time I am up I will have a better chat with the farmer and get some clarification.

Its not a case of the farmer does want me with FAC on there as he is a straight talking guy and he would just say no which would have been fine with me as its his land and he is letting us use air rifle on it.

I just wonder if as Kent says Cambs have put an odd stipulation on it if it is a no go with Rimfire I was just wondering on FAC air or does it all get lumped in the same.

There is no figuring them at times I am afraid

[Zetter]

There is no figuring them at times I am afraid

 

 

Its seems to be the way as I know a couple of lads who were pushed towards HMR as a "safer" alternative to .22LR on their first grant, at the moment it seems to be apply for everything and see what day of the week it is to see what you get!

[al4x]

If the land is cleared for the farmers .17 HMR then the land has been cleared for FAC end of.

 

You need your written permission from your land owner and put the application in.

 

webber

It doesn't need to be cleared at all, he could have had his fac before moving there and had it opened before. Or had it long before clearance even existed

[fruity]

What kind of area is it approx ? Two of my permissions have footpaths running through them but no issue on clearance

[kent]

Hi Kent

 

Its a bit of an odd one really the farmer has a HMR but as the comment above seemed to have had a bit of a time getting it cleared. If its a no go I will investigate other avenues.

 

Neil

if this is as it reads apparently he is not open either

[Zetter]

if this is as it reads apparently he is not open either

 

Im pretty sure hes not on an open ticket.

 

Fruity the size is about 50 acres give or take a couple of the fields are massive taking up a large part of the permission.

 

I will update when I get some more info next time im over there

Edited May 6, 2014 by Zetter

[webber]

It doesn't need to be cleared at all, he could have had his fac before moving there and had it opened before. Or had it long before clearance even existed

Fair point.

 

webber

[tomov]

Neil

 

You don't say whether you think it would be safe to shoot with either .17 or .22. Presumably you've thought it through though as otherwise you wouldn't be contemplating it. If that's the case, I'd suggest that you need to demonstrate to your firearms team that you can shoot over the land safely - explain to them which areas and arcs of fire are safe, how you would manage any risks (like telling the landowner you are going to be there for example) and what adaptations you might need to make (like shooting from a high seat).

 

Some will take the **** for this but do a risk assessment! Make as strong a case as you possibly can, communicate it properly and generally (in my experience) common sense will (usually!) prevail.

[Zetter]

Hi Tomov

 

You make a good point my plan was to go in with was with a map of the permission showing the areas I would be shooting from arc of fire ect. I think it would be safe to shoot in certain areas there are a couple of big fields (coincidently the major rabbit issues) that have good backstops due to the incline with excellent clear fields of view and no footpaths. Didn't think of the risk assessment and high seat for some of the other areas but will put these together if I get more information to confirm its worth going forward.

[Redgum]

Neil

 

You don't say whether you think it would be safe to shoot with either .17 or .22. Presumably you've thought it through though as otherwise you wouldn't be contemplating it. If that's the case, I'd suggest that you need to demonstrate to your firearms team that you can shoot over the land safely - explain to them which areas and arcs of fire are safe, how you would manage any risks (like telling the landowner you are going to be there for example) and what adaptations you might need to make (like shooting from a high seat).

 

Some will take the **** for this but do a risk assessment! Make as strong a case as you possibly can, communicate it properly and generally (in my experience) common sense will (usually!) prevail.

 

Doing your own risk assessment is always impressive, the first bit of land I had to get cleared was for 243 and I did a rough sketch of where the high seats would be situated etc. There was a concrete farm track running through the farm so the PC could drive virtually see most of the farm and wooded areas. I was quite disappointed when he didn't even bother to get out, even though we were parked next to some fresh plough he ask what the soil type was, he only had to open his door.

[tomov]

Neil

 

Sounds like you'v got a good grip on it to me mate. I'm sure i downloaded a sample RA template from the BASC site (there's loads online anyway).

 

Redgum - mine was much the same experience!

[Davyo]

When I got a perm cleared I made a point of meeting the officer and escorting him around the perm.I went loaded with goole earth maps and perimeters clearly marked out and any areas of concern, ie footpath and a B road ( and a copy for him).He was more conerned re the safty aspect and was impressed that I had mapped the area in detail and most importantly any areas of concern.I also made it quite clear I knew what lay beyond the boundries.It is always advisable to try and walk the land with the officer in my opinion as you have chance to explain your do's and don'ts.

As other's have stated even if you didnt have a footpath going across,its still possible for oneone to be on the permission when your shooting.Its about demonstrating your ability to take a safe shot and have a clear vision between you and the quarry with a defined backstop.

[Ben W.]

Initially I was concerned about footpaths when I applied for my FAC, I have access to 1,000 acres and they criss cross all over the place but as part of my job I mow them every fortnight during the summer. Therefore I know them like the back of my hand so when it came to chatting to the FEO he was more than happy that I was aware of potential public presence around the place. So long as you are aware of their location it really shouldn't be an issue but every FEO will be different.

 

He was more concerned/intrigued as to why I requested the .17HMR on the ticket as well as the .22lr. I made the case that the rabbits get overshot (we have a guy who lamps with a shotgun regularly) and so when they get too skittish of vehicles and people the extra range of the HMR would be handy. I also mentioned I was concerned about the ricochet potential of the .22lr during the summer when the ground hardens (heavy compacted clay around the set-aside), he said he would be more concerned about a lighter round ricocheting at ~2,500fps than a heavier round at ~1,000fps. He also said the whizzing, tumbling .22lr round will lose energy a lot quicker than a fragmented high speed .17HMR round ricochet.

 

It would be interesting to hear opinions on this from PW members, needless to say I was granted both on my ticket.

[Davyo]

Totally agree with Ben W.You showed a clear indication of your knowledge of your permission and the fact that you are vigilant regarding the possible presence of the genearal public.That probably made it an easier decision for the officer.So the majority of land could be deemed safe if it has a responsible shooter.But the same deemed unsafe if shot over by an idiot.This is why I believe its a good idea for an escorted land.