Teaching The Hold Command

[pegleg31]

Philippa Williams - Levenghyl Gundogs (displayed at crufts)

I started doing training courses partly because I was horrified by some of the methods used by Old School trainers (forced Hold etc).

Never heard of you?

 

Tell me a little more to what you've achieved

[atbh61]

Never heard of you?

 

Tell me a little more to what you've achieved

Sorry, who do you not know about?

[atbh61]

Ok in an effort to put this to bed I have just come of the phone to BASC ( hope you are all paid up members and trust there advice?) and They said that they would never recommend this form of training to anyone, and have no knowledge anyone that would.

[WelshAndy]

What's your point?! If someone wants to hold a dummy in their dogs mouth what's it to you? It's like you telling me what to have for my tea. Who are we to judge?

[atbh61]

What's your point?! If someone wants to hold a dummy in their dogs mouth what's it to you? It's like you telling me what to have for my tea. Who are we to judge?

If you do not know what my point is why are you posting? If you are having problems with your evening menu, I would try having a dummy stuffed in your mouth then you may get my point.

[WelshAndy]

If it's one of yours it would be delicious I'm sure......... Mmmh pigs liver.

[atbh61]

If it's one of yours it would be delicious I'm sure......... Mmmh pigs liver.

They are good Andy but not that good:)

[atbh61]

BASC and the KC regarding the forced hold? I have spoken to both toady and they have told me that they do not support this. I have spent a lot of time here being asked who I am and what I could know that other members do not. now however I think the boot is on the other foot. who are you guys to say that its ok? still look on the bright side any of you that are paying membership to BASC or buy a KC registered pup are paying to educate this practice out of dog training for good. so it does dot matter what you say here as your money is saying something better.

All of you that have been rude to me and challenged me can now take it up with the the KC and BASC as it would seem that I am right or are you still going to tell me that you know better? One man in canada has a better understanding than the mass of brilliant uk based teaching provided?

[ROBLATCH]

That is the best advice you may have ever given. Why would I take "advice" from someone that still thinks its good training to push something into a dogs mouth and hold it there?

My advice to you is get a dog and let it teach you how its mind works then you will start to understand why the rest of the dog training world has moved on from this.

edward martin basic retreiver training does just that on he,s dvd,s now we are talking a man that has trained tens of ftch, i would not say he was wrong

[WelshAndy]

Thinking about it john halstead does something similar in his DVD the drakeshead way. He had a young lab who would drop retrieves before the delivery and he had modified a dummy so it had an elastic strap which went across the dogs muzzle, which held the dummy in the dogs mouth.

[hedd-wyn]

I usually put the dummy in my pants, after an hour the sheer aroma of Welsh beef is so overwhelming that the pup can not resist but hold onto it.

[scotslad]

I'm not going to get too involved in this but..

 

Since when where either basc or KC the top gundog training authorities in the uk? They don't even pretend to be!

 

KC is pretty much a bunch off glorifeid sectretaries, all they do is register and store lists of dogs as well as overseeing variuos comp's, wether show agility or FT. Never did i realise they were at the forefront of gundog training. Many would also argue they have been at the demise of many great working breeds, from gundogs to terriers etc and are about to ruin scent hounds too, but that is a different story.

I also never realised that BASC we're now a top training authority, they have 1 or 2 pages in the mag but that's about it, if that's ur indicator u would have been as well phoning Shooting times as they have 4 pages every week.

 

The biggest thing is thou, wot have u asked them? The above technique is NOT a Force Fetch. FF involves negative association before the dummy is introduced as someone else said usually involving ear pinches or toe hitches.

 

I have seen many many trainers do something very similar but using plenty off praise while dummy is in mouth, i would argue that almost every trainer in the uk who runs gundog classes will have done something similar to deal with dogs dropping dummies, i really do not see wot the problem is.

 

Next time ur on to the KC perhaps u would be better asking about some off there breeding polices or breed standards for showing or on a working theme, I think i am correct in saying the KC are now allowing owners to use 'pinch' collars in pointer and setter field trails.

[ROBLATCH]

I'm not going to get too involved in this but..

 

Since when where either basc or KC the top gundog training authorities in the uk? They don't even pretend to be!

 

KC is pretty much a bunch off glorifeid sectretaries, all they do is register and store lists of dogs as well as overseeing variuos comp's, wether show agility or FT. Never did i realise they were at the forefront of gundog training. Many would also argue they have been at the demise of many great working breeds, from gundogs to terriers etc and are about to ruin scent hounds too, but that is a different story.

I also never realised that BASC we're now a top training authority, they have 1 or 2 pages in the mag but that's about it, if that's ur indicator u would have been as well phoning Shooting times as they have 4 pages every week.

 

The biggest thing is thou, wot have u asked them? The above technique is NOT a Force Fetch. FF involves negative association before the dummy is introduced as someone else said usually involving ear pinches or toe hitches.

 

I have seen many many trainers do something very similar but using plenty off praise while dummy is in mouth, i would argue that almost every trainer in the uk who runs gundog classes will have done something similar to deal with dogs dropping dummies, i really do not see wot the problem is.

 

Next time ur on to the KC perhaps u would be better asking about some off there breeding polices or breed standards for showing or on a working theme, I think i am correct in saying the KC are now allowing owners to use 'pinch' collars in pointer and setter field trails.

exactly agree, i have bred dogs that have gone on to be ftch but that does not make me an excellent trainer? (no) as i only bred the pups not trained em.and it was those who trained them their own way that made them the dogs what they are today,ive no doubt that the various folk who purchased pups from me have their own instinctive way of training,,many of whom have been gundog trainers expelling in what they do and proving it.

[Dave1087]

Hi all the beast and easiest way I have found to stop the dog form dropping the dummy is on the return from a retrieve you should move back as the dog returns and he/she will follow you and come in close then take the dummie then you can buld up to the sit command when you have got the dog doing this

Just trying to give people diferent options on the problem

Hope this will help someone

[ROBLATCH]

steadfast training of gundogs comes in various ways and in my honest opinion you take the route of what suits you and you dog first and foremost..thats why we call it training its a LEARNING curve,and i can honestly say that my dogs at times surprise me with what and how soon they pick up therefore teaching us the owner/trainer a thing or two.

[darren m]

phillipa . i dont understand why you are so against it .

tell us all then , how you would correct a dog that drops a dummy or bird while returning a retrieve to hand

 

the method i use in this post works well ,

i sit my dog up and place a soft dummy in its mouth and repeat the "hold " command , if the dog drops it i say no and replace it back in its mouth and repeat "good girl hold" , over and over . while gently supporting it in place ( not ramming it in its mouth ) and stroking her head

 

in a few days the dogs gets it and will hold on command , ive done this with 2 labs and 3 springers no probs

[scotslad]

Darren is spot on above, usually ur top hand is stroking the dogs head or scratching behind its lug while the bottom hand is rubbing his chin (or later on its chest) all the time he is getting praised the whole 'good boy' 'hold' treatment with a soft voice.

How anyone can be so upset by this mystifies me?

 

U can also try standing in very shallow water, some dogs won't drop a dummy in shallow water (also stops the common drop shake thing) loads of differnet ways to do it, some will work on different dogs

 

In the UK this usually doesn't take much as the dogs are generally natural rretrievers but have devloped a fualt, whereas in some other countries the dogs have no retriving instinct so will be a longer process. In most of the continent pointer setter breeds which don't retrieve in this country where they where originally bred, retrieve no problems

[PERCE]

phillipa . i dont understand why you are so against it .

I don't actually think ATBH61 is Phillipa Williams, I think the guy may have been to some of her training. BTW Do you know Philipa Williams is?

[WelshAndy]

This her

 

[darren m]

I don't actually think ATBH61 is Phillipa Williams, I think the guy may have been to some of her training. BTW Do you know Philipa Williams is?

 

only via google and youtube