thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 yes, i remember another time Britain interfered and stood up to another evil dictator Adolf something or other you did history at school right? We were aiding allies and then defending ourselves.... I dont need to explain the total contrast to what we've been discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Straight answer required were they better off or not? KW For india that cant be answered as we'll never know what they'd be today if we didnt invade... For the African and Arab states it clearly made no difference... we took what we wanted and left them to it. Altho you could argue they'd be better off than they are today if we didnt invade and traded directly (in the true sense of the word) with them and thus improving their own wealth rather than extracting the wealth into our economy. We'll never know unless we find a parallel universe where it didnt happen. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 could it be that our only allies are of white european descent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) I dont see the relevance to this conversation. But if I must I suggest you look up the Commonwealth of Nations, born through the empire yes but allies today and days past. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 A foreign dictator would never let loose a WMD at the west...unless provoked... it would be suicide and they know it. North Korea have Nuclear weapons (no ballistic missiles but thats not the only form of delivery), chemical and biological weapons.... probably one of the worst dictatorships in the world, they hate the west and yet you dont see them lobbing stuff at us. Iran also have biological and chemical weapons, have done for a long time, they hate America more than anyone and once again still no WMD's being lobbed our way..... they may be radical but they're not totally kookoo crazy. If we poked that hornets nest we'd get some back... which is why we dont poke it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roberto-toscano/no-iranians-dont-hate-you_b_2972677.html You were doing rather well but slipped a little there although in the face of monumental media efforts to portray Muslim countries as bad you could be somewhat forgiven. If you're interested in the truth then please read the link carefully, it is very very close to the actuality of affairs. It is true that hardliners often refer to the US as the Great Satan and your good selves as the Little'un but the only way you can comprehend the rhetorics is to study history with an open mind, i.e. put yourself in their shoes, also don't forget the West has always returned the rhetorics compliments back with interest ! The last time Iran attacked another country can be measured by centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 As you pointed out Britain will quickly join forces with allies, for its own protection or protection of it's assets. is it beyond belief that Kuwait could have been considered an ally due to our vested interest in its supply of oil and trade, in which case a war was justified from Britains point of view, (wrongly in my opinion,) also perhaps some of the african nations or malaysia or india are also our allies should we jump in if war or an act of war was declared upon them, or just leave them to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roberto-toscano/no-iranians-dont-hate-you_b_2972677.html You were doing rather well but slipped a little there although in the face of monumental media efforts to portray Muslim countries as bad you could be somewhat forgiven. If you're interested in the truth then please read the link carefully, it is very very close to the actuality of affairs. It is true that hardliners often refer to the US as the Great Satan and your good selves as the Little'un but the only way you can comprehend the rhetorics is to study history with an open mind, i.e. put yourself in their shoes, also don't forget the West has always returned the rhetorics compliments back with interest ! The last time Iran attacked another country can be measured by centuries. I was talking about the Iranian state (mostly past tense as the new guy seems like his heads in a better place), not the populace. Oh and I rarely watch "media", if I do its taken with a pinch of salt as anyone can see that a lot of it is verging on propaganda or simply what sells... I read, research and make up my own mind what I believe. Its unwise to make sweeping statements regarding how someone might come to their conclusions as you have no idea what I or others do, watch, read etc etc. Edited June 17, 2014 by thepasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I was talking about the Iranian state (mostly past tense as the new guy seems like his heads in a better place), not the populace. Thanks for that, it's just when you wrote : Iran also have biological and chemical weapons, have done for a long time, they hate America more than anyone it seemed you were refering to the whole country as opposed to the ruling entity, now that would have been a sweeping statement ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 In the context of the conversation I thought it clear we were talking about states rather than the populace... generally the populace dont have access to WMD's or make the decisions on whos friend or foe. I'll be more clear in future so you dont get yourself in a pickle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 In the context of the conversation I thought it clear we were talking about states rather than the populace... generally the populace dont have access to WMD's or make the decisions on whos friend or foe. I'll be more clear in future so you dont get yourself in a pickle We're doing rather well on this thread so no need for us two to spoil it for others but just so you don't continue to miss the point, the populace do have access to hate but my point is they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I got your point first time around, if we were talking about populace we'd have something to talk about...but we're not. Post edited to save further confusion. Moving on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I find it a bit odd that on the one hand you are indignant that songbirds are shot in Malta and on the other hand quite happy to see millions of children condemned to a slow death by starvation or blown to bits because they live in a different continent, ( your option of their destruction makes slavery a worthwhile career choice) Not odd...the song birds being shot in Malta are ours... The population of Africa and Asia has reached unsustainable proportions..when that happens war ensues and humans ( including children get killed ) Like I said leave well alone.... I wouldn't risk the life of a British Mothers child on them whether he was 2 or 32. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsallpl Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Thepasty. 'A foreign dictator would never let loose a WMD at the west...unless provoked... it would be suicide and they know it, That was my point Thepasty, committing suicide for the so called cause makes them a martyr. If they are true to their faith, what have they got to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 We're talking state heads and the like here not some poor lad whos been brain washed into some twist of faith. The radicalists have twisted the faith to suit their needs and to manipulate their own people. Its not the way of the Muslim or the Quran. Do you really think these super rich head of state are going to press the bang button for their faith? no, they're corrupt and selfish just like the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Not odd...the song birds being shot in Malta are ours... The population of Africa and Asia has reached unsustainable proportions..when that happens war ensues and humans ( including children get killed ) Like I said leave well alone.... I wouldn't risk the life of a British Mothers child on them whether he was 2 or 32. FM you condemned the UKIP supporters for being nazi racist's now you glibly condemn millions of innocent children around the world who (unlike the songbirds) are not British, to a death which may simply be due to failed harvest's or a neighboring warmongerer, because their population has reached unsustainable proportions, and they are not worth protecting, British soldiers have proudly staked their lives world wide because they believed that other foreign children were worth protecting against wrong doers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 What matters with the latest Iraq war is that it was pre-emptive. Saddam hadn't threatened us, our allies or his neighbours (at least not recently) but we thought we ought to get rid of him because he was the sort of person who might. Under such logic there are no limits to the wars we can start nor the reasons for starting them which are likely to get thinner and thinner each time. I'm afraid we didn't go to war against the Nazis because Hitler was a psychopathic dictator who was terrorising sections of his own population but because he invaded Poland. He committed an act of war against a sovereign state. We went to war against Iraq in 1990 for the same reason. Not because Saddam Hussein gassed Kurdish women and children or tied people who displease him to tank tracks and rolled over them but because he invaded Kuwait. War in such circumstances is justified. War as a kind of global social service is not. Pre-emptive warfare is the road to perdition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 What matters with the latest Iraq war is that it was pre-emptive. Saddam hadn't threatened us, our allies or his neighbours (at least not recently) but we thought we ought to get rid of him because he was the sort of person who might. Under such logic there are no limits to the wars we can start nor the reasons for starting them which are likely to get thinner and thinner each time. I'm afraid we didn't go to war against the Nazis because Hitler was a psychopathic dictator who was terrorising sections of his own population but because he invaded Poland. He committed an act of war against a sovereign state. We went to war against Iraq in 1990 for the same reason. Not because Saddam Hussein gassed Kurdish women and children or tied people who displease him to tank tracks and rolled over them but because he invaded Kuwait. War in such circumstances is justified. War as a kind of global social service is not. Pre-emptive warfare is the road to perdition. BUT and this is a "what if", we have at present a bunch of barbarians swarming over the middle east de-stabalising the whole shooting match,and they are threatening the western economy via their ability to gain control of major oil supplies to the west, and if you get out of bed one day and the lights dont go on or you have no petrol for your car, would you say its not our fight then if we launched an offensive to gain oil supplies? I bet there would be a massive mood swing towards get the gloves off and get in there and get it by any means possible. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 BUT and this is a "what if", we have at present a bunch of barbarians swarming over the middle east de-stabalising the whole shooting match,and they are threatening the western economy via their ability to gain control of major oil supplies to the west, and if you get out of bed one day and the lights dont go on or you have no petrol for your car, would you say its not our fight then if we launched an offensive to gain oil supplies? I bet there would be a massive mood swing towards get the gloves off and get in there and get it by any means possible. KW As you say, it's a "what if", and a very big if too. We will have to cross that bridge if we come to it. But I think it is unlikely. What I'm sure of is there will be a whole barrel load of trouble to come if we go to war in anticipation of something that hasn't yet happened rather than to correct (as we see it) something that already has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 BUT and this is a "what if", we have at present a bunch of barbarians swarming over the middle east de-stabalising the whole shooting match,and they are threatening the western economy via their ability to gain control of major oil supplies to the west, and if you get out of bed one day and the lights dont go on or you have no petrol for your car, would you say its not our fight then if we launched an offensive to gain oil supplies? I bet there would be a massive mood swing towards get the gloves off and get in there and get it by any means possible. KW The thing is though The west isn't reliant on Iraqi oil. Like any export its worthless without a market. It would be extremely hypocritical of us to get involved and then refuse entry into Britain of the thousands of refugees a war would create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 FM you condemned the UKIP supporters for being nazi racist's now you glibly condemn millions of innocent children around the world who (unlike the songbirds) are not British, to a death which may simply be due to failed harvest's or a neighboring warmongerer, because their population has reached unsustainable proportions, and they are not worth protecting, British soldiers have proudly staked their lives world wide because they believed that other foreign children were worth protecting against wrong doers. Bit melodramatic aren't we... are you advocating we go over there sort it out and then accept 1000's of misplaced refugees ( essentially immigrants ) affected by the conflict. I thought UKIP fought their campaign on anti immigration ?? and a insular self sufficiency. What's it got to do with the British soldier ? I lost a cousin in Iraq and another in Afghanistan... both of them were there because they signed up and that's where HM Gov sent them. Both saw children as young as 10 carrying and using Kalashnikovs. Nope leave well alone I say...nothing good will come of it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Saddam was a bad dude but he was the only person capable of keeping the nation together. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Bit melodramatic aren't we... are you advocating we go over there sort it out and then accept 1000's of misplaced refugees ( essentially immigrants ) affected by the conflict. I thought UKIP fought their campaign on anti immigration ?? and a insular self sufficiency. What's it got to do with the British soldier ? I lost a cousin in Iraq and another in Afghanistan... both of them were there because they signed up and that's where HM Gov sent them. Both saw children as young as 10 carrying and using Kalashnikovs. Nope leave well alone I say...nothing good will come of it . It has slowly dawned on me that there will be people on here who have every reason to be offended by my last remark regarding British soldiers and to them I sincerely apologise i am remarkably proud of our armed forces so I repeat apologies to you, I have my own reasons for wanting to protect innocent people and can see no reason why this wish should not be applicable worldwide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Saddam was a bad dude but he was the only person capable of keeping the nation together. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Not sure gassing is a good way to go about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Saddam was a bad dude but he was the only person capable of keeping the nation together. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Not sure gassing is a good way to go about it We can't fix every problem in the world and to even try and attempt to is naïve in the extreme. Why haven't we sorted out Zimbabwe, just about every Country in Africa, China, Burma, North Korea and just about every other Country in the Middle East. We should have left it well alone alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted June 18, 2014 Report Share Posted June 18, 2014 Don't want to put ideas in their heads but I guess the cost of fuel will go up again now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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