loading under the powder weight recommendations?

[Albert 888]

Ok, howa 1500 308 24" stainless varmint 1/10 twist.

Using lapua cases once fired cleaned and neck sized with cci br-2 primers vit n140 and lapua 155g senars. Im on with load development at the moment and the recomendations for powder weights from the one calibre one book are 37.5g-40g mine is shooting the lower powder weights better than the higher, so ive loaded up some under weight loads to try done 5 37g, 5 37.3g just to see if the groups still stay tight. Im 0.5" moa with the 37.5g gradually opeing up the higher the powder weight as in 40g is doing a 2" group and you can clearly see them opening up the more powder weight. What's going to happen if significantly underloaded,im not going to go well under like you wouldnt go well over without working up or down.

[phaedra1106]

Worse case example, massive over pressure, blown up rifle, loss of body parts, serious injuries to yourself and anyone nearby or death

 

Never a good idea to drop lower then the powder manufacturers recommendation, we know there's an amount of safety margin on their figures but they are there for good reason.

 

If you're getting .5 MOA I really don't understand why you'd need to improve on that. But, if you really must then try a different bullet or small changes to the seating depth with that weight of powder and see if there's any improvement that way.

 

Also try and ensure your case prep is consistent, check your case OAL's, chamfer the inside/outside of the case necks, try a Lee factory crimp die ets. etc. all much safer options than going below a recommended powder weight just to see what happens.

 

Just checked the VV site, according to the latest edition of the reloading guide (12) N140 with 155gr Scenars is 36.7 - 43.4gr

 

http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/5/70

Edited July 11, 2014 by phaedra1106

[kent]

Don't reduce powder fill lower than the normal start load, it can lead to serious pressure spikes (a detonation rather than a burn if you like to think of it that way).

If you want a reduced power / recoil load use a different powder.

You have just found the low node, not that I particularly believe in nodes 100% personally when we are talking sub 200 but low fills will shoot, I will bet most could shoot a cracking 100 yard group with a fairly random fill if they though it was their "special" load sat in the chamber

Edited July 11, 2014 by kent

[Albert 888]

Im only going 0.5g under to see if the groups open up to find the sweet spot. I started with a tight group with 37.5g min load then gradully worked and went 1g over. All was god no pressure sighns or tight bolts. Even shot the groups high to low powder weights to dismiss warm-dirty barrel and settling in. Still the same groups. Like I say im not going way under just a tad. The last thing I want to do is blow it or myself up.

[Albert 888]

Worse case example, massive over pressure, blown up rifle, loss of body parts, serious injuries to yourself and anyone nearby or death

Thanks for that 36.7 is lapuas starting load so im safe at 37g.

 

Never a good idea to drop lower then the powder manufacturers recommendation, we know there's an amount of safety margin on their figures but they are there for good reason.

 

If you're getting .5 MOA I really don't understand why you'd need to improve on that. But, if you really must then try a different bullet or small changes to the seating depth with that weight of powder and see if there's any improvement that way.

 

Also try and ensure your case prep is consistent, check your case OAL's, chamfer the inside/outside of the case necks, try a Lee factory crimp die ets. etc. all much safer options than going below a recommended powder weight just to see what happens.

 

Just checked the VV site, according to the latest edition of the reloading guide (12) N140 with 155gr Scenars is 36.7 - 43.4gr

 

http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/5/70

[Albert 888]

Im safe at 37g ,thanks for that. I would like to see the group open again so im sure the 37.5g is for me and the rifle. Its for target hence wanting the tightest groups. Will be happy when they all go through the same hole.

[Harnser]

The load I have used for many years in my .308 ,is 45 grains of vit 140 and a 150 grain soft point bullet . This load is 3 grains down from the max book load for bullet weight and vit 140 . This load was developed after much trial and error with lots of different powders . It's a compressed load and is perfectly safe . Do not down load to far . As previously said it can be very dangerous with to much space in the case ,which could cause detonation and not a controlled ,progressive burn . 37 grains of vit 140 does seem to be a bit on the light side to me for a 150 grain bullet.

 

Harnser

Edited July 11, 2014 by Harnser

[kent]

Ok, but don't forget too low a fill equals freaky pressure spikes, 50 or 100 or even far more are fine then Kerboom and bits of gun all over at very high speed. Pistol guys were well known for this once over looking for reduced recoil

[Underdog]

You won't have an issue at the amount you suggest Albert, don't ever do it with a ball powder or any powder requiring a magnum primer though!

 

If you are after keeping costs down then going to a faster powder will be needed for light charges however you will trade velocity!

 

U.

[Underdog]

Low volume charges will not cause detonation from rifle powders at all.

 

Poor ignition of ball powders for rifles can be dangerous and fuller the case the better the ignition but it won't cause detonation. They can pop the bullet out, flame out and then go off causing damage but not detonation.

 

To much of a fast powder in a large case or even double dosing such powders accidently causes explosive situations.

 

The fear fairies are about again Albert

[Harnser]

Low volume charges will not cause detonation from rifle powders at all.

 

Poor ignition of ball powders for rifles can be dangerous and fuller the case the better the ignition but it won't cause detonation. They can pop the bullet out, flame out and then go off causing damage but not detonation.

 

To much of a fast powder in a large case or even double dosing such powders accidently causes explosive situations.

 

The fear fairies are about again Albert

No way will you double charge a .308 case ,as 45 grains will fill it up . Pistol cases , now that is a different storey .

 

Harnser.

[Albert 888]

Im in the parameters and recoil is an isue for me but im not loading down for the recoil just finding the best group,if the highend powder weights shot better I would be chasing that. I have given up clays,shooting enfields and bowling as my sholder was playing up. To much work and not enough rest did the damage. Sholder is now ok. Got the 1/10 twist to shoot the heavier bullets and better bc's ,will try when I get it shooting the lighter loads through the same hole. Thanks for the advice,im off to the range in the morning and hopefully getting some comp targets done with the new rifle.

[Underdog]

No way will you double charge a .308 case ,as 45 grains will fill it up . Pistol cases , now that is a different storey .

 

Harnser.

I said Sir `to much of a fast powder`. One that only fills less than half the case can alow a double dose.

 

For instance I use to load 16grns of H4227 in 243 under a 60grn bullet, the case was less than half full. Great care was needed!

 

In them days we had no fear fairies, just common sense but we did ok on it.

 

Pistols as you know use short barrels so it has to be all over quick so the powders are way closer to neat nitro than common rifle powders and hence their low dose rates. Early cases being designed around BP and early bulky nitro have created a situation where upon it is easy to double dose with modern low volume fast powders.

 

A completely different situation than Albert has inquired about!

 

U.

[phaedra1106]

Low volume charges will not cause detonation from rifle powders at all.

 

Sorry, but it's low volumes of slow burning (rifle) powders in larger volume (rifle) cases which can cause the "secondary explosion" effect.

 

Our club uses low volumes (4 to 5gr) of fast burning pistol powder in rifle cases (.30 cal) with cast boolits for reduced indoor loads, these are proven loads, using a similar amount of slower burning rifle powder would be extremely dangerous.

 

For more information have a look at the following and the work done by Mattern and Harris on the subject.

 

http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=810

 

 

Albert, your loads are perfectly safe just don't go below the recommended load data.

[kent]

Fear fairies those would be the ones who might search chamber detonation, gun explodes etc. only ever seen one gun blown up myself don't want to see another period. The issue is chamber detonation is difficult to create intentionally you might shoot for years then one day.............

37 grains is a good enough fill level to avoid this though I should drop the bullet weight and use a faster powder to achieve your low recoil load personally. The situation is said to be flashover were all the powder gets ignited at once rather than progressively, trail boss was produced to try and alleviate this sort of thing

Bad shoulders aint good I know that one first hand, heavy gun and smaller bullets are you friend more than dropping a few grains. I didn't hurt my own shoulders with recoil though that took a whole new world of abuse

[Underdog]

 

Sorry, but it's low volumes of slow burning (rifle) powders in larger volume (rifle) cases which can cause the "secondary explosion" effect.

 

Our club uses low volumes (4 to 5gr) of fast burning pistol powder in rifle cases (.30 cal) with cast boolits for reduced indoor loads, these are proven loads, using a similar amount of slower burning rifle powder would be extremely dangerous.

 

For more information have a look at the following and the work done by Mattern and Harris on the subject.

 

http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=810

 

 

Albert, your loads are perfectly safe just don't go below the recommended load data.

Thanks but I can not use the link!

 

Which powders did they use? Ball types?

[Underdog]

Fear fairies those would be the ones who might search chamber detonation, gun explodes etc. only ever seen one gun blown up myself don't want to see another period. The issue is chamber detonation is difficult to create intentionally you might shoot for years then one day.............

37 grains is a good enough fill level to avoid this though I should drop the bullet weight and use a faster powder to achieve your low recoil load personally. The situation is said to be flashover were all the powder gets ignited at once rather than progressively, trail boss was produced to try and alleviate this sort of thing

Bad shoulders aint good I know that one first hand, heavy gun and smaller bullets are you friend more than dropping a few grains. I didn't hurt my own shoulders with recoil though that took a whole new world of abuse

The flash over theory is just that ....theory. The average expert finds this a simple explanation to readily accept.

 

However there is more to it than that.

 

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html

 

In the link notice the advice to not go below 30% case volumes. Albert is way off dropping below 30% case volume. My old 243 H4227 load was above 30% case cap'.

 

You see Kent old friend, there are those who can talk the talk but only a few can do the walk!

 

I can see lots of guns blowing up all day on youtube but that alone without the data does not qualify me to advise anyone, and anyone who does is a.....fear fairy.

[phaedra1106]

Here's the classic standard work for starting shooting military smokeless firearms with cast boolits by E Harris.

CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES

Cast bullets can make shooting that surplus rifle easy and economical.
And basic data works for many different guns.

BY C.E. Harris

Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical field ranges with military battle sights than do full power loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that shoots a foot high at 100 yards with surplus ammo when the sight is as low as it will go! Do not use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up excess empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions of loading. Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898 military rifle from 7mm to 8mm:

1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Hercules #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent.

None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle cases such as the 30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, 7.62x54R Russian , or 30-06. They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of 7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. For bores smaller than 7mm, consult published data.

The Small Game or Gallery" Load

The 110-115 grain bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20 Winchester, such as the Lyman #3118, #311008, #311359, or #311316 are not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a readily available .30 caliber cast small game bullet of the proper 125-130 grain weight. LBT makes a 130 grain flat-nosed gas-check bullet for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver.

The "100 Yard Target and Small Game" Load

I use Mattern's plain-based "100 yard target load" to use up my minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100 yard practice. I substitute my usual gas-checked bullets, but without the gas-check. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman #311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done with these two basic designs.

Bullets I intend for plain based loads are blunted using a flat-nosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes them from my heavier gas-checked loads. This makes more sense to me than casting different bullets.

Bullet preparation is easy. I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without sizing, and are used for plain base plinkers. Bullets which are visually perfect are weighed and sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain for use in 200 yard matches. Gas checks are pressed onto bullet bases by hand prior to running into the lubricator-sizer. For gas-check bullets loaded without the gas- checks, for cases like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and 30-06, I use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning powder. These include, but are not limited to Bullseye, WW231, SR-7625, Green Dot, Red Dot or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9 grains of medium rate burning pistol or shotgun powders, such as Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British or larger.

In the 7.62x39 case, use no more than 4 grains of the fast burning powders mentioned or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. Theses make accurate 50 yard small game loads which let you operate the action manually and save your precious cases. These plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.

Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which are so modified must never be used with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and labeling them clearly to prevent their inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting in rimmed cases like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.

The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise

Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his 100 yard target load because this was common with the lead bullet .32-40 target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with non gas- checked bullets in military rifles at lower velocities approaching match grade .22 long rifle ammunition. I use my "Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both Mattern's "small game" and "100 yard target" loads, though I have lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same purpose. It's report is only a modest "pop" rather than a "crack".

If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal bullet stability, increase the charge no more than a full grain from the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy. If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short for its weight because it will be more easily stabilized. If this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gas-checked bullet and a heavier load.


The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200 yard Target"

My favorite load is the most accurate. Mattern's so-called "200 yard target load." I expect 10 shot groups at 200 yards, firing prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high Sharpshooter, low Expert scores across the course with an issue 03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using may cast bullet loads. The power of this load approximates the 32-40, inadequate for deer by today's standards. Mattern's "200 yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy than harder ones, such as linotype. Local military collector-shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the "universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a 150-180 grain cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use 16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as high power competitors use 168 Sierra Match Kings and 4895.

The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of #2400 provides a maximum load, and which must not be exceeded, is in the tiny 7.63x39mm case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee 312-155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially for the 7.62x39, but it works very well as a light bullet in any .30 or .303 caliber rifle.

Sixteen Grains of #2400 is the Universal Load

The same 16 grain charge of #2400 is universal for all calibers as a starting load. It is mild and accurate in any larger military case from a 30-40 Krag or .303 British up through a 30-06 or 7.9x57, with standard weight bullets of suitable diameter for the caliber. This is my recommendation for anybody trying cast bullets loads for the first time in a military rifle without prior load development. I say this because #2400 is not "position sensitive", requires no fiber fillers to ensure uniform ignition, and actually groups better when you stripper-clip load the rifle and bang them off, rather than tipping the muzzle up to position the powder charge.

Similar ballistics can be obtained with other powders in any case from 7.62x39 to 30-06 size. If you don't have Hercules #2400, you can freely substitute 17 grains of IMR or H4227, 18 grains of 4198, 21 grains of Reloder 7, 24 grains of IMR 3031, or 25.5 grains of 4895 for comparable results.

However, these other powders may give some vertical stringing in cases larger than the 7.62x39 unless the charge is positioned against the primer by tipping the muzzle up before firing. Hercules #2400 does not require this precaution. Don't ask me why. Hercules #2400 usually gives tight clusters only within a narrow range of charge weights within a grain or so, and the "universal" 16 grain load is almost always the best. Believe me, we have spent a lot of time trying to improve on this, and you can take our word for it.

The beauty of the "200 yard target load" at about 1500 f.p.s. is that it can be assembled from bullets cast from the cheapest, inexpensive scrap alloy, and fired all day without having to clean the bore. It always works. Leading is never a problem. Once a uniform bore condition is established, the rifle behaves like a .22 match rifle, perhaps needing a warming shot or two if it has cooled, but otherwise being remarkably consistent.

The only thing I do after a day's shooting with this load is to swab the bore with a couple of wet patches of GI bore cleaner or Hoppe's, and let it soak until the next match. I then follow with three dry patches prior to firing. It takes only about three foulers to get the 03A3 to settle into tight little clusters again.

"Deer and Long Range Target Load"

Mattern's "deer and 600 yard target load" can be assembled in cases of 30-40 Krag capacity or larger up to 30-06 using 18-21 grains of #2400 or 4227, 22-25 grains of 4198, 25-28 grains of RL-7 or 27-30 grains of 4895, which give from 1700-1800 f.p.s., depending on the case size. These charges must not be used in cases smaller than the 303 British without cross checking against published data! The minimum charge should always be used initially, and the charge adjusted within the specified range only as necessary to get best grouping.

Popular folklore suggests a barrel must be near perfect for good results with cast bullets, but this is mostly bunk, though you may have to be persistent.

I have a rusty-bored Finnish M28/30 which I have shot extensively, in making direct comparisons with the same batches of loads on the same day with a mint M28 and there was no difference. The secret in getting a worn bore to shoot acceptably is to remove all prior fouling and corrosion. Then you must continue to clean the bore "thoroughly and often" until it maintains a consistent bore condition over the long term. You must also keep cast bullet loads under 1800 f.p.s. for hunting and under 1600 f.p.s. for target work.

A cleaned and restored bore will usually give good accuracy with cast bullet loads if the bullet fits the chamber throat properly, is well lubricated and the velocities are kept below 1800 f.p.s.

The distinction between throat diameter and groove diameter in determining proper bullet size is important. If you are unable to determine throat diameter from a chamber cast, a rule of thumb is to size bullets .002" over groove diameter, such as .310" for a 30-06, .312" for a 7.63x54R and .314" for a .303 British.

"Oversized 30's", like the .303 British, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine, and 7.62x39 Russian frequently give poor accuracy with .30 caliber cast bullets designed for U.S. barrels having .300 bore and .308 groove dimensions. This is because the part of the bullet ahead of the driving bands receives no guidance from the lands in barrel s of larger bore diameter. The quick rule of thumb to checking proper fit of the forepart is to insert the bullet, nose first, into the muzzle. If it enters clear up to the front driving band without being noticeably engraved, accuracy will seldom be satisfactory.

The forepart is not too large if loaded rounds can be chambered with only slight resistance, the bullet does not telescope back into the case, or stick in the throat when extracted without firing. A properly fitting cast bullet should engrave the forepart positively with the lands, and be no more than .001" under chamber throat diameter on the driving bands. Cast bullets with a tapered forepart at least .002" over bore diameter give the best results.

Many pre-WWII Russian rifles of US make, and later Finnish reworks, particularly those with Swiss barrels by the firm SIG, have very snug chamber necks and cannot be used with bullets over .311" diameter unless case necks are reamed or outside turned to .011" wall thickness to provide safe clearance.

Bullets with a large forepart, like the Lee 312-155-2R or Lyman #314299 work best with the 7.62x54R because the forcing cones are large and gradual. Standard .30 caliber gas-checks are correct.

Finnish 7.62x54R, Russian 7.62x39 and 7.65 Argentine barrels are smaller than Russian 7.62x54R, Chinese 7.62x39, Jap 7.7 or .303 British barrels, and usually have standard .300" bore diameter. (Finnish barrels occasionally are as small as .298") and groove diameters of .310 -.3115".

In getting the best grouping with iron sighted military rifles, eyesight is the limiting factor. Anybody over age 40 who shoots iron sights should equip himself with a "Farr-Sight" from Gil Hebard or Brownell's. This adjustable aperture for your eyeglass frame was intended for indoor pistol shooters, but it helps my iron sight rifle shooting, and adds about 5 points to my score!

So now you have enough fundamentals to get started. If you want to have fun, give that old military rifle a try. You'll never know the fun you've been missing until you try it!

[kent]

What can I say you prove your point, I just hope nobody takes this your cavalier advice and gets hurt.

[Alycidon]

Suggest you try N150, a cooler powder, so same/correct fill but lower velocity and pressure will result.

 

Personally I love N150.

 

A

[Underdog]

Thank you so much for that quote. What I have been doing for ovrr twenty years and blown nothing up. In that time I have suffered two bad car crashes, rode scores of fast bikes....fast. Injured my back at work, cuts and bruises but never ever blown a rifle up oh hang on....there was that factory round that blew a primer pocket but dis not blow the rifle to bits!

Fear fairies !

[kent]

Of course factory ammo can be faulty, I think if memory serves correctly it was a factory round that removed a guys arm about 12-15 yrs back as a hangfire that let go right at the wrong millisecond and blew the bolt back out the action ( I believe that was due to a faulty batch of primers). Of course a new gun is warrantied when damaged if your using recognised factory and debatably not so using hand loads, it don't mean any more than being easier to prove were the blame lies though IMO.

Its unwise to talk of fills over stated max on forums etc. but I concur and don't think you could get too much N140 in if you had a good rifle in good condition, you can certainly get too little in. The issue as always is guns vary in critical dimensions just enough to create different pressures within a batch and then you have the faulty and poorly maintained / worn out and also brass, primer type temperature, jump or jamb, correct sizing etc. to consider.

Hand loading your own ammo is a risk, managing the risk correctly makes things very safe. I am pretty sure I could pull straight out onto the road from the end of our track without looking for traffic many, many times without incident (its very quiet mostly) but one day I might be unlucky so I always check. Filling past the max or under the minimum is something i should be very careful about recommending openly and I certainly think if you need to ask DONT DO IT

[Albert 888]

Right oh I have been to the range and shot the 37g 37.3g 37.5g 37.8g. The 37.5 and 37.8 did well but as suspected the 37.3 and the 37g openened up. I now have the lapua specific load data and will try the higher end weights to see if the groups close again. Then I will try some lighter heads as im not bothering with the 208s. Thanks for the info once again its much appreciated.

[malkiserow]

I've had a close look at a T3 that detonated in the chamber, it split the bolt which then jammed fro fragments of steel around the lugs. The stock split in 3 I imagine the poor fellow who pulled the trigger had to go and change. I was told this was from and under- charge.

 

 

What I've not understood is some data sources such as the 1 cal book may have a variety of different powders and weights. That is OK but one I looked at was 2 single base powders N140and N160 .......if these are both fine, why not list the charges for N150 also a single base and the double base N550??

[seeker]

Seems 1 book 1cal data is from older handbooks based in a different powder batch, on different days and possibly with different test barrels. etc.

latest is usually on line from the manufacturer.

Edited July 12, 2014 by seeker