Duckman91 Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 best answer +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 best answer +1 + 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted August 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 After a message from a mod, I won't be "naming and shaming". Suffice to say, I've spoken to the shop and they're going to refund the money (or try to repair it, although from speaking to a gunsmith, it won't be worth it). Although I'm sure Mr.W.Bosher of this parish has a fine selection he could sell me, it's not really worth the fees getting it to me... They seem to be quite common these guns so I'm sure I can get another one locally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Because the brass is unsupported where that bit is missing then I would consider it possible for the brass to burst with consequent risk to the eyes of the firer so pretty dangerous I would have thought. Definite refund. Spot on The brass has expanded WAY to far! The extractor acts as the breech wall, as well as the extractor! Thats a dangerous, I SAY DANGEROUS! Issue. Get on the fog horn to the dealer and leg horn it back there, for a repair or refund! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted August 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 As I said in my last post, I'm returning the gun for a refund. I just hope they pay for the RFD transfer too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 I can't comment in this case - but many guns 'shops' are neither 'gunsmiths' or 'gunmakers'. I have been amazed about how little the shop attendants know in some cases. In most instances they will admit it and call over someone more knowledgeable. In a few cases they don't. I am reminded of an example (at a well known name) were I was served by a 'junior' who obviously knew very little. He didn't need to consult his seniors, however, because where he didn't 'know' he made it up as he went along. A shame - as I have heard from others that the proprietor of that particular shop is a very good and knowledgeable person, but can't be serving all of the time. I would hope that the senior person/proprietor would always have a decent knowledge, but in some cases, it appears not even that person knows much. The better shops have a tame gunsmith - and everything that is passed as a sale through the shop is checked by the gunsmith, but I believe there are many who don't do this as a routine. You obviously never had the joy of visiting Deep Blue in Whitley Bay! What a load of tat! I went down with a friend who was looking at a Stoger air rifle! While there, another friend was checking out the shotguns. He was looking at a semi auto! I checked it over! No choke, just tue threaded barrel. The barrel had a deep dent, the end cap of the mag tube was stripped of.it's thread! I told him to leave it. He found an O/U which sounded like a marracha when you shook it. The play in the barrel was unreal! In contrast, I was in Gilsan's in Richmond. He had a cracking single barrel greener in there but wouldn't sell it for.a.reason I can't recollect now! Barrel was as shiney as it would have been new, woodwork was ok and the action worked spot on. I would have loved it! Some people have no business trying to be a Firearms Dealers! I also had issues with Weldon Gun Room. I bought a O/U from them, ok it was budget price at £120 but I expected it to work. Took it to smiths for a round of skeet. 5th shot failed to fire. Tried again and failed. Tried again and nothing. Packed it up for the day and dropped it off at Weldon. Few days later got a call. Picked it up and took it to smiths and again about the 7th shot failed. Did this again. And took it back again. A week or so later gets a call to collect and this time took it out back.of the workshop. Seemed fine for half a dozen shots! Took it away and after not even half a box of carts it loused again. I took it back and wanted it exchanged against a better gun. The **** offered me £80 in trade in? Wouldn't give me the money I paid. I will not set foot in there again. I know it's only £40 but the gun was not fit for purpose from the start. Adding insult to injury is not a good business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Hope you get it sorted. It may be worth a trip to Wallis and Wallis auction rooms in Lewes as they may well have a few in their next sale (September?) and they should be cheaper too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted August 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Hope you get it sorted. It may be worth a trip to Wallis and Wallis auction rooms in Lewes as they may well have a few in their next sale (September?) and they should be cheaper too. Ah, thanks for the heads up! I've posted the gun back now, even though my RFD said it would be quicker driving up there (but I wanted receipts etc. in case it gets nasty, which it probably won't). My dealer then showed me how the stock had been broken and repaired at some time, how loose the action was, it was missing a spring on the folding catch. Might not have even been in proof (it was stamped .405 and they allow 0.01 expansion before it is deemed out of proof but he didn't bother measuring it). Piece of junk, basically... Anyway, I bought a melted down Russian tank to play with in the meantime. Can barely lift it but it should survive lamping later this week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Ah, thanks for the heads up! I've posted the gun back now, even though my RFD said it would be quicker driving up there (but I wanted receipts etc. in case it gets nasty, which it probably won't). My dealer then showed me how the stock had been broken and repaired at some time, how loose the action was, it was missing a spring on the folding catch. Might not have even been in proof (it was stamped .405 and they allow 0.01 expansion before it is deemed out of proof but he didn't bother measuring it). Piece of junk, basically... Anyway, I bought a melted down Russian tank to play with in the meantime. Can barely lift it but it should survive lamping later this week... The lack of extractor would make it out of proof let alone the wall thickness often these guns are ones handed in to dealers who see them as pure profit. I was at gunsmiths while he was looking at an old BP webley with pitted bores, he rang the shop to say proof was marginal they said well send it for nitro proof they had been trying to sell it for £700 but if it passed nitro were going to tidy it up and put it on for £1700 work and reproof circa £500.... The gun was one handed in they got for free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted September 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 Well, a month later and still no refund. My local RFD assures me it's been sent so I'm sending them a letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 Well, a month later and still no refund. My local RFD assures me it's been sent so I'm sending them a letter. Sale of goods act and small claims court usually gets a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 the fact it had no ejector and probably out of proof for this, the dealer could get in hot water. is it not illegal selling a gun out of proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 It will cost you more in time to replace the extractor. They will want to give you your money back and brush it under a carpet, looks like someone pulled his pants down in a deal and you've just shown him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 A chat to the FLO of the sellers area may speed up the response... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 No it is not out of proof for not having or having a broken extractor . It is not fit for purpose so should be returned asap and either have it repaired at their expense or a full refund .I would also get it checked for proof which I doubt they will be able to do . There is no excuse what so ever for a gun to be sold in that condition . IT would seem that the owners of this shop are not competent to hold a Dealers Licence . That is one of the biggest faults with the trade today ,just about any one can get an RFD and sell guns .The last thing many seen to possess is a knowledge of guns . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 No it is not out of proof for not having or having a broken extractor . It is not fit for purpose so should be returned asap and either have it repaired at their expense or a full refund .I would also get it checked for proof which I doubt they will be able to do ..Could you explain why it isn't out of proof (having part of the chamber missing) as I thought it would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 If the barrels are meaty enough it's in proof, it is simply missing an extractor that does not mean it's safe to fire. Unsafe and out of proof are not the same thing. As Gunman says I doubt they have a wall thickness gauge though. In my view what's happened someone has sold the new shop a gun as stock they failed to check it, it's can either be chalked down to 2 things 1 it's a cheap gun just get it out the door I'm not bothered 2 they haven't a clue what they are looking at so did see it as they don't know. To many IHMO RFDs are just salesmen they like guns but in reality could be trying to sell anything. Some dealer try to exploit these sorts by off loading their rubbish on them, they believe they have something sellable as is. They have offered the OP his money back, he should take it and walk away, I hope they learn there lesson and check all there guns in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 HDAV a broken or missing extractor would not affect the proof status of the gun . Bore dimensions ,chamber size ,pits bulges and rivels will . It would not acceptable to proof in its current state as it will not be able to chamber a cartridge correctly . so it would be rejected just as it would be if it were off the face or had insufficient bite to hold it closed . Being un acceptable for proof and being out of proof are not the same thing . Point here was that some idiot who obviously knows nothing about guns is selling them .That is dangerous and needs stopping . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) If it is unfit to be presented for proofing then it must be out of proof. Edited September 11, 2014 by bostonmick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Sorry but no. Please take it from me this not the case,. Proof is confused issue and as I have been dealing with second hand guns and submitting guns to proof for the best part 35 years I think I can speak with some certai ty on this. Being unaccetable for proof and being out of proof are not the same think.If this wa s so then half the guns offered for sale would be out of proof for one reason or another.A good example of this is gun that is loose in the action and bites, not acceptable for proof but actually in proof by all other means. Same can be said for dents a dentted barrel still in proof but not acceptable for reproof , take the dent out and all is OK . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 If you could not attain a certificate of proof then it is effectively out of proof.all parts of the gun have to be up to standard you cannot have a partial proof.all the faults you list would mean the gun could be unsafe to use so would not gain a pass.atb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 If you could not attain a certificate of proof then it is effectively out of proof.all parts of the gun have to be up to standard you cannot have a partial proof.all the faults you list would mean the gun could be unsafe to use so would not gain a pass.atb Gunman is correct here if you have dealt with the proof house (I'm fairly new to it only 3 years experience in my own right) it's not as simple as people like to make it. This 410 could have an extractor fitted and be perfectly useable. Not having one does not make it out of proof, it does make it unfit for use though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Gunman is correct here if you have dealt with the proof house (I'm fairly new to it only 3 years experience in my own right) it's not as simple as people like to make it. This 410 could have an extractor fitted and be perfectly useable. Not having one does not make it out of proof, it does make it unfit for use though. I have never had any direct dealings with the proof houses. I have anything I need done by my local smith.I know that if you make any significant changes to the pressure bearing parts of a gun it should be reproofed so if you make a new lifter or ejector as this is part of the facing and seal of the barrels why does this not take the gun out of proof and by not having that part by what reasoning is the proof still valid.atb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Simple answer is because it doesn't . an extractor is not considered to be a structural part so does not in its self require to be proofed .I have tried to explain what is not considered by the poof houses as rendering a gun out of proof and as said I have been in the trade a long time , 46 years last month since I started my apprenticeship with a Birmingham Gunmaker , so I believe I have a greater knowledge on these matters than many others so please accept what I am saying . If you would like to contact either Proof House directly I am sure they will confirm what I have said and if I am wrong then you have my most abject apologies . I'm sorry if this goes against what you my think or what you reason should be so but that's the way it is ,I have fitted many new extractors to many guns and there has never been a question as to the proof status ,if there had of been I would have taken it up with the Proof Houses long ago . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 But the design of this particular gun the extractor is forming part of the chamber, how can a gun with part of the chamber missing not be out of proof? The shop is closed now so I'll give them some time to respond before naming and/or shaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts