First Attempt

[Cyrus1988]

Personally i'd load them up like the ones on the right and shoot the things!

 

Its nice to have a neat crimp, but if the cartridge goes bang and kills stuff what is the problem with a slightly mucking looking crimp? Most of my fowling loads have a dodgey looking crimp but they go bang and kill stuff

 

I'm going to head out tomorrow morning and see if I can drop a few crows with them but I also think I may have a slight case of the OCD and it's bothering me with these dodgy crimps...

[edenman]

Can you not RTO the load ?

[Cyrus1988]

Can you not RTO the load ?

 

Is that roll turn over?

[edenman]

Yes

It is easier than crimping, I would persevere with the lee load all though as its worth it in the long run

[Cyrus1988]

I'm going to eventually get a GAEP spinner which is the same idea, I think? I know I can get good crimps with the Lee so it's not the equipment that's letting me down, it's either the wrong components or more probably something stupid I'm doing.

[edenman]

My crimps when I first started were no way near as good as the ones you have done, you will get there. The lee Loadall is more about feel with the handle.

[turbo33]

Okay so I decreased the load to 28grams for the middle cartridge, not a nice crimp. I then did another cartridge (the one on the left) and dropped 30grams, crimp's not much better than the 28gram one. The cartridge on the right is one with a 2mm card in the bottom of the wad, I think the crimp looks pretty good.

 

 

So what does that mean? It's like the wad is too short, 32grams isn't enough to fill the space or the overall case is too long.

 

Thanks again for all the input guys.

 

There's some huge inconsistency going on here. Your first posts looked like there was too little space, crimp not going down etc. post 14, putting a card in taking up more space helped Post 35, press going all the way down as it should, then the case buckles Post 56, the used case will be swollen from the previous shot load and slightly stretched, so I would expect that to be as it is. Looking at post 74, the 32grm with card is the same as an earlier load, but now you have it much deeper

Are you reusing the wads each time or fresh ones? Use fresh ones.

Is the final crimp coming down to stop on the metal guide? make absolutely sure it is.

From the last photo, I would be inclined to try with another 1mm piece of card, cereal packet stuff.

If you have another old shell, the same as the black one you used, do the same again, but put another piece of card in there.

 

Oh and DON'T use either the pre crimp or the final crimp stations more than once on each shell.....really important.

 

This is all very weird

Edited October 3, 2014 by turbo33

[Cyrus1988]

My crimps when I first started were no way near as good as the ones you have done, you will get there. The lee Loadall is more about feel with the handle.

Cheers bud, without the guys on here I think I'd given up by now.

[Cyrus1988]

 

There's some huge inconsistency going on here. Your first posts looked like there was too little space, crimp not going down etc. post 14, putting a card in taking up more space helped Post 35, press going all the way down as it should, then the case buckles Post 56, the used case will be swollen from the previous shot load and slightly stretched, so I would expect that to be as it is. Looking at post 74, the 32grm with card is the same as an earlier load, but now you have it much deeper

Are you reusing the wads each time or fresh ones? Use fresh ones.

Is the final crimp coming down to stop on the metal guide? make absolutely sure it is.

From the last photo, I would be inclined to try with another 1mm piece of card, cereal packet stuff.

If you have another old shell, the same as the black one you used, do the same again, but put another piece of card in there.

 

Oh and DON'T use either the pre crimp or the final crimp stations more than once on each shell.....really important.

 

This is all very weird

 

 

The inconsistencies are most likely down to me not using the loader properly. The wads are brand new each time.

 

Ah, you're meant to go all the way down to the black metal plate on the last stage? I've definitely not been doing that.

 

And I have been using the pre crimp a couple of times just to make sure the plastic is set. I'll stop doing that.

 

Really appreciate all this advice, cheers.

[turbo33]

 

 

The inconsistencies are most likely down to me not using the loader properly. The wads are brand new each time.

 

Ah, you're meant to go all the way down to the black metal plate on the last stage? I've definitely not been doing that.

 

And I have been using the pre crimp a couple of times just to make sure the plastic is set. I'll stop doing that.

 

Really appreciate all this advice, cheers.

 

Great, couple of issues there........we're on the way..........await exciting results!!!

[super sharp shooter]

Can you post a picture up of the cartridge after you have pre crimped it. It does look like final crimp isn't deep enough. If the pre crimp isn't closed enough you will get a hole in the middle.

[Cyrus1988]

Can you post a picture up of the cartridge after you have pre crimped it. It does look like final crimp isn't deep enough. If the pre crimp isn't closed enough you will get a hole in the middle.

 

Okay guys just finishing loading another one and apologies as this post will be very picture heavy.

 

I dropped the powder as normal, inserted the wad and then dropped the shot. Placed the cartridge on the pre crimp stage and presses and held for a couple of seconds. The final crimp stage bottomed out on the black plate. This is the pre crimp:

 

I then moved it onto the final crimp stage and pressed all the way down to black plate on the bottom, held it for about 3 seconds and then released. I was pleasantly surprised by how well the crimp looked compared to the previous ones. The only negative I noticed and have tried to show in the last picture is that there seems to be a slight buckle near the base again.

 

 

Apart from the buckle this is by far the best crimp I've managed without adding cards or using the coin/washer method. I know I keep saying it but thanks to everyone thats had an input, you're all awesome.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Cyrus1988

[Cyrus1988]

I also managed to get out for a couple of hours this evening for a walkabout; bagged a crow and was able to find the wad.

 

I don't normally look at wads once they've been used, does anything look out of place?

 

 

Cheers.

[deershooter]

That wad looks too long for a 32 gram load you must be crushing it when you put it in all you should do is put enough pressure to seat the wad on the powder not deform it in any way the slight buckle shows that the wad is slightly too long .

 

Deershooter

Edited October 3, 2014 by deershooter

[Floating Chamber]

Your best bet for a 32gram load is the B&P Z21 plastic wad.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Floating Chamber

[Continental Shooter]

Hi,

 

I think you only have the wrong wad, with SIPE N (i think is also known as Lovex 0032) I only use the Gualandi H25.

 

Also,with the Lee, I would avoid the bushes as they are inaccurate and when you pre-crimp, i would hold up 2 secs, release and repeat a second time. This way the wedges should sit closer to each other at the top and would make a perfect star (if the combination of the elements is correct)

 

I would normally use 12/70 NSI 686 (prime) 1.50 X 33 Gualandi 25 RTO at 58mm gave me an average of 675 bar and 415 m/s

 

between the wad and the extra gram you should close levelled with the Lee, as said, if you want to excel you can RTO the shells for a slight increase in pressure (due to the harder work done by the column to undo the tighter RTO)

 

Otherwise you can try the below, they've all been proofed and they all perform well:

 

Cx2000 Sipe N 1,45x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (620 bar & 405 V0)
Cx2000 Sipe N 1,55x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (700 bar & 425 V0)

Cx2000 Sipe N 1,65x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (765 Bar & 435 V0)

 

The first one offers a tighter pattern than the last one but is a bit slower, the last one has a wider pattern for shorter shots (typically over decoys).

 

You can load up to 36 gr with SIPE although these need to be perfectly balanced and proofed!!

 

Thanks,

[Continental Shooter]

I would love to know why people identify wads by the load they allegedly can hold (seen it in lots of web sites).

 

I think this is inaccurate as each powder has a different volume, also, different powders need different quantities in order to pushe the same weigh of lead; therefore, on occasions, you might need different wad for the same load of pellets or different loads to fit the wad.

 

A shell is not just powder and lead, is a combination of everything from the prime to the crimp and a good load is the one where all the elements are fit for that particular load and work well in combination, regardless of how they are classified... me thinks!

[rbrowning2]

Hi,

 

between the wad and the extra gram you should close levelled with the Lee, as said, if you want to excel you can RTO the shells for a slight increase in pressure (due to the harder work done by the column to undo the tighter RTO

 

Thanks,

 

Are you sure an RTO increases the pressure as most like for like loads I have seen show an increase in powder for the RTO version over the same load with a Stella crimp closure suggesting the pressure would otherwise be less with the RTO.

 

Where possible I always think it is best to avoid the RTO closure as it just adds an extra cost to making the cartridge unless you play around cutting out a DIY card disc to put over the shot. Also it is generally agreed that the card can interfere with the shot pattern.

Was it not for these reasons (and speed of loading) that the cartridge manufacturing industry moved away from RTO in preference for the Stella crimp?

 

The SIPE powder is double based and is more dense than a single base powder and hence uses less case volume so requires a different wad than a single base powder would. But the parts look to have been sold to the cyrus1988 as a working load so one would expect them to go together.

[Cyrus1988]

That wad looks too long for a 32 gram load you must be crushing it when you put it in all you should do is put enough pressure to seat the wad on the powder not deform it in any way the slight buckle shows that the wad is slightly too long .

 

Deershooter

 

After I have dropped the powder, I give the case a tap just to level the powder out and then place the wad in by hand and slide it down inside the case until it reaches the powder, I don't use the Lee to put any extra pressure on it.

 

As rbrowning2 has just said, all the parts were sold as a working load, I know that they work on a different loading machine but it's just me trying to replicate it on the Lee that is proving difficult.

[Cyrus1988]

Hi,

 

I think you only have the wrong wad, with SIPE N (i think is also known as Lovex 0032) I only use the Gualandi H25.

 

Also,with the Lee, I would avoid the bushes as they are inaccurate and when you pre-crimp, i would hold up 2 secs, release and repeat a second time. This way the wedges should sit closer to each other at the top and would make a perfect star (if the combination of the elements is correct)

 

I would normally use 12/70 NSI 686 (prime) 1.50 X 33 Gualandi 25 RTO at 58mm gave me an average of 675 bar and 415 m/s

 

between the wad and the extra gram you should close levelled with the Lee, as said, if you want to excel you can RTO the shells for a slight increase in pressure (due to the harder work done by the column to undo the tighter RTO)

 

Otherwise you can try the below, they've all been proofed and they all perform well:

 

Cx2000 Sipe N 1,45x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (620 bar & 405 V0)

Cx2000 Sipe N 1,55x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (700 bar & 425 V0)

Cx2000 Sipe N 1,65x32 Gual.25 RTO @ 58mm (765 Bar & 435 V0)

 

The first one offers a tighter pattern than the last one but is a bit slower, the last one has a wider pattern for shorter shots (typically over decoys).

 

You can load up to 36 gr with SIPE although these need to be perfectly balanced and proofed!!

 

Thanks,

 

 

I do use the bushes on the Lee but for each and every drop of powder I weigh it to make sure I'm hitting my target, if not, the powder is poured back in the hopper and I restart.

 

Earlier on in this thread somebody mentioned that I shouldn't use either the pre-crimp or final crimp stage more than once, although I don't know the reasoning behind it?

 

Thanks very much for the comments though, it's amazing how much detail there is in all this.

[sitsinhedges]

The problem is that if you pre crimp once one time then twice another you will get differing results. You need to aim for consistency to get reliable results.

[Cyrus1988]

So there is no harm in pre-crimping twice but I just need to make sure every cartridge gets the same treatment?

[turbo33]

So there is no harm in pre-crimping twice but I just need to make sure every cartridge gets the same treatment?

 

There's no need to and as Sits said, you are just introducing variables which is not what your after. If you look at my post (42) again showing the carts I did on the Lee, that's one crimp and one final crimp......job done

Edited October 4, 2014 by turbo33

[Cyrus1988]

 

There's no need to and as Sits said, you are just introducing variables which is not what your after. If you look at my post (42) again showing the carts I did on the Lee, that's one crimp and one final crimp......job done

Okay, I'll just stick to the one pre-crimp then, keep it simple.

 

Thanks again.

[Continental Shooter]

Apologies, it was late at night and my finger were gaining independnce....

 

In my previous post, instead of RTO it should always read star crimp

 

The RTO objective is to open the pattern so that even shots within the 10-15 mt have a wide and dense pattern without risking to destroy the quarry.

 

This is quite the norm for woodcock shooting in dense woodland where the shell needs to produce a very open and dense pattern to ensure a clean kill in the shortest possible distance through branches and leaves: in some instances, when properly loaded, some shell will offer a very dense pattern of 70 cm wide at 12/15 mt and up to 20 mt .

 

The increase in powder in RTOs (normally in region of 0.05 /0.07) is due to the fact that the powder will have less compression, therefore, will not have the same combustion as with a star crimp, however, in certain loads, you can compensate by adding more lead which will also help the pattern.

 

Of course, if you look at big manufacturer a 0.05 decrease in powder x shell make sense but for the home loader a saving of 5g x 100 shell isn't a massive save (about £1 x 1000 circa) if you consider the advantages in RTO in specific circumstances and indeed, if it was just for the savings.... it wouldn't really make sense to reload

 

As for the 'package' sold to Cyrus, i think that falls into my second question..... the wad was deemed to be for 32gr .... but it just isn't a fit with SIPE N ...me thinks!

 

Finally, I would always double the pressing on the Lee, both for the pre crimp and the finish as IMHO that gives a better, more consistent closure!