Rimfireboy Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 If anyone can go into a gunshop and buy just a set of barrels then no problem, but if you have to produce your certificate then no. That could be said for cartridges then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 That could be said for cartridges then? How do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) Spoken to FAO and he said it would be illegal for her to be in control of part of the gun. Only way around it would be if she got a licence. Thanks for all the help. That is completely wrong, thought not surprised. Had a local FEO who was uder the impression that shotgun cartridges have to be securely stored. This is either mission ceep or just ignorance of the law. Just goes to show why some people would rather call BASC or put a question to an internet forum before contacting their FEO. Sometimes it seems FEO don't know the law! How do you mean? You can posess cartridges without a license but not buy the unless you have one. Edited November 4, 2014 by Steppenwolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delburt0 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Just rent a DVD and stop in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 You can posess cartridges without a license but not buy the unless you have one. You can posses them without one and "normally one is required to purchase them" but not always, they can also be bought by a none SGC holder who has written authority from and the certificate of the holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Yes that is correct there is a thing in the Firearms acts about allowing your butler to purchase cartridges, which I think is hillarious. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Yes that is correct there is a thing in the Firearms acts about allowing your butler to purchase cartridges, which I think is hillarious. ) You are indeed correct, I always send my wife/general factotum to buy mine when she's in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guinty1 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 As already stated this was covered a while back when someone posted the question was it legal to give a set of barrels to someone to work on if they didn't hold a sgc. After many posts including some from a rfd on here who said it illegal it was shown it was not illegal. It is obvious your feo has a very poor understanding of the 68 act if they are giving you that advice. If you were to read section 57 (1) of the act the last paragraph of that section is what allows you to have the barrels without a certificate.it doesn't make for easy reading but thats the bit you need.my job involves me working with the 68 act on a daily basis unlike some of the people giving you the wrong advice on here about this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Might be one for BASC to pick up and speak to the dept concerned. They may be fully aware of the act but choose to give misinformation on purpose We can't have people walking around with bits of pipe now can we! That's just redicilous !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel100 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 Yep, come across this old chestnut from time to time. NEVER take the word of the police. Always check it out. Remember, they can say anything they like without fear of consequences. You get it wrong and you could be looking at five years. I see them come out with stuff which is totally wrong and will put people the wrong side of the law by following their advice on a regular basis. And yes, as others have said, it is legal for a non certificate holder to be in possession of component parts of a shotgun, in this case, shotgun barrels. Obviously, must be smooth bore and 24" minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 This makes interesting reading from a barrister http://www.firearmsexpert.co.uk/challenging-the-prosecution-expert-evidence-in-firearms-related-cases/ Backs up the point that no licence is needed, it kind of makes the point if you are going to rob a bank get one bloke to carry the barrels (not sawn off) and another the action and meet at the bank just in case you get stopped on the way :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 I asked the police if my brother could drop the action of my sxs to the gun shop for me, if I had the barrels stock and fore end. But the answer was NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 The only thing I can think of is while it might not be an offence to have in your possession a component part of a shotgun you as the licence holder are responsible for your shotgun. Breaking your shotgun into component parts then giving some parts to non licence holders might be seen as a breach of your certificate as you no longer have the shotgun in your possession only the component part you keep hold of and no record of the shotguns disposal. No idea if it would be an offence or not but it could be argued that way I guess. Where is your shotgun? It's here officer... No that's just a component part and not classed as a shotgun so you no longer have the shotgun in your possession. Just a thought not saying I am right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 The only thing I can think of is while it might not be an offence to have in your possession a component part of a shotgun you as the licence holder are responsible for your shotgun. Breaking your shotgun into component parts then giving some parts to non licence holders might be seen as a breach of your certificate as you no longer have the shotgun in your possession only the component part you keep hold of and no record of the shotguns disposal. No idea if it would be an offence or not but it could be argued that way I guess. Where is your shotgun? It's here officer... No that's just a component part and not classed as a shotgun so you no longer have the shotgun in your possession. Just a thought not saying I am right. Interesting , how far do you go? people often send the wood for repair/refinishing and no one bats an eyelid, its only the metal bits people get fussy about, but IIRC you can buy pins, springs, hammers etc without showing an SGC mail order.... The act separates the parts controlled rather specifically for section 1 (specific parts are controlled) and section 2 not controlled. When is a shotgun a shotgun? Thats a bit deep really..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 It gets very deep and people get paid a lot of money to argue in front of someone in a strange wig to see who is right. I was just thinking if the act says a component part is not a shotgun and all you have in your possession or place of security is a component part then where is your shotgun in the eyes of the act? It's schrodinger's shotgun. I don't know the answer but you cannot argue your component part is your shotgun while the other component part you gave to a none licence holder isn't, so in the eyes of the act your shotgun no longer exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 mmmm good point, are we now discussing the philosophical shotgun, after all it is just matter..... Electrons can be in 2 places at once so why can't shotguns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted November 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) That is completely wrong, thought not surprised. Had a local FEO who was uder the impression that shotgun cartridges have to be securely stored. This is either mission ceep or just ignorance of the law. Just goes to show why some people would rather call BASC or put a question to an internet forum before contacting their FEO. Sometimes it seems FEO don't know the law! You can posess cartridges without a license but not buy the unless you have one. Did you ring BASC? Or similar...... In answer to both the above posts and other speculation. I asked BASC this question months ago. Their response was that they had no doubt the Police would seek to prosecute. They didn't go into the legalities, and I didn't ask (but disagreed). I asked this question on Sunday because BASC were closed and I wanted more details on it. Then on Monday I spoke to the FAO. I would welcome any other BASC members to give them a ring and find out exactly what the deal is. From my own research it seems to be a no. I'm going to play it safe and not venture into any grey areas. Thank you for everyones input and thoughts on the matter. Edited November 4, 2014 by OJW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 can I just say something and I,m not fully going into detail as it is not needed, cartridges CAN BE held IN POSSESSION of a NON certificate holder,as a full basc member I had them(BASC) come to an interview with me with the firearms team, whilst at the meeting it was clearly discussed about giving the barrels of a shotgun to a NON certificate holder to re blue, it was clearly explained in the meeting with BASC and the firearms people(Merseyside) that it was NOT illegal to hand over JUST THE BARRELS to a NON CERTIFICATE holder. they did stipulate that it was clearly at the certificate holders discretion as to wether he did or not and regarding an RFD you would find that 99% of them would NOT give barrels to a non certificate holder even though it was NOT illegal (which they have every right to do) as was explained at the meeting,,a shotgun(section 2) does not become a shotgun until all the parts are connected together ie barrels,action and stock and forend are all connected,daft I know,, a section 1 shotgun is totally different as it is a FIREARM and covered by the said certificate but a section 2 shotgun isn't. so for the said FAO to state it was illegal clearly does not know the law,some FAO,s know nothing whatsoever about firearms which I think is clearly ridiculous, but law is law and I think a FAO should certainly know the law with regards firearms and shotguns and even including air rifles, why this topic is continuing is beyond me, the LAW clearly states its not illegal as has clearly been written on here in a previous thread so I would advise you to go back to your FAO and ask him where he got his WRONG information from and can you have what he has said in writing , he IS wrong atb Evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 can I just say something and I,m not fully going into detail as it is not needed, cartridges CAN BE held IN POSSESSION of a NON certificate holder,as a full basc member I had them(BASC) come to an interview with me with the firearms team, whilst at the meeting it was clearly discussed about giving the barrels of a shotgun to a NON certificate holder to re blue, it was clearly explained in the meeting with BASC and the firearms people(Merseyside) that it was NOT illegal to hand over JUST THE BARRELS to a NON CERTIFICATE holder. they did stipulate that it was clearly at the certificate holders discretion as to wether he did or not and regarding an RFD you would find that 99% of them would NOT give barrels to a non certificate holder even though it was NOT illegal (which they have every right to do) as was explained at the meeting,,a shotgun(section 2) does not become a shotgun until all the parts are connected together ie barrels,action and stock and forend are all connected,daft I know,, a section 1 shotgun is totally different as it is a FIREARM and covered by the said certificate but a section 2 shotgun isn't. so for the said FAO to state it was illegal clearly does not know the law,some FAO,s know nothing whatsoever about firearms which I think is clearly ridiculous, but law is law and I think a FAO should certainly know the law with regards firearms and shotguns and even including air rifles, why this topic is continuing is beyond me, the LAW clearly states its not illegal as has clearly been written on here in a previous thread so I would advise you to go back to your FAO and ask him where he got his WRONG information from and can you have what he has said in writing , he IS wrong atb Evo Well said that man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 as was explained at the meeting,,a shotgun(section 2) does not become a shotgun until all the parts are connected together ie barrels,action and stock and forend are all connected,daft I know,, a section 1 shotgun is totally different as it is a FIREARM and covered by the said certificate but a section 2 shotgun isn't. Hmm, so you are saying that you don't have a 'shotgun' if it is broken down - and a non SGC holder can be in possession of one broken down? Doesn't sound right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 as was explained at the meeting,,a shotgun(section 2) does not become a shotgun until all the parts are connected together ie barrels,action and stock and forend are all connected So does that mean then a non sgc holder could buy a shotgun as long as the above mentioned parts are not connected at the time of purchase.as it would not be a shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 So, while it may be legal to do so, there is enough confusion on this, even among people that should know better, that I would not give a non-licence holder my shotgun barrels, especially my wife. If stopped, then they are likely to have a very uncomfortable time. Good thread and useful to distinguish between what is legal and what is sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Hmm, so you are saying that you don't have a 'shotgun' if it is broken down - and a non SGC holder can be in possession of one broken down? Doesn't sound right to me. No, that's not exactly what he said, what is being stated that the law states and I quote "Certificate (is) only required for the shotgun itself, not for its component parts". Obviously a non certificate holder in possession of all the component parts would be in possession of a (complete) shotgun whereas a non certificate holder may legally be in possession of say the barrels. Simple really A very simple precis is this Home Office document in note 3(2)............http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap22.htm Edited November 5, 2014 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 No, that's not exactly what he said, what is being stated that the law states and I quote "Certificate (is) only required for the shotgun itself, not for its component parts". Obviously a non certificate holder in possession of all the component parts would be in possession of a (complete) shotgun whereas a non certificate holder may legally be in possession of say the barrels. Simple really A very simple precis is this Home Office document in note 3(2)............http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap22.htm What is the legal definition of a 'component part'? Does this mean I can have the barrels, my mate has the action, and someone else has the fore end, and each of them can be in possession of cartridges - and this is all legal? Sounds dodgy to me. Poorly worded, or poorly drafted legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 What is the legal definition of a 'component part'? Does this mean I can have the barrels, my mate has the action, and someone else has the fore end, and each of them can be in possession of cartridges - and this is all legal? Sounds dodgy to me. Poorly worded, or poorly drafted legislation. Welcome to firearms legislation. When is a shotgun a shotgun? When does it change from a lump of metal, engineered, shaped, machined into a firearm? is once assembled? is prior to finishing? only after proofing? Does the police guidance not state when unavoidable to leave a shotgun in a car to take part with you so a thief is not in possession of a complete shotgun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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