License photocopied buying cartridges

[Andy H]

This is from Black's law dictionary

What is PLACE OF BUSINESS?

The location where a business is actually located; where most of the business activities, as well as their records are kept.

Law Dictionary: What is PLACE OF BUSINESS? definition of PLACE OF BUSINESS (Black's Law Dictionary)

[Scully]

Are the X-Files now closed Dana?

Not sure Mulder; ( feeling brave again now I see, note also, my willingness to play, without reference to the German porn films your avatar would suggest...whoops ) am busy asking someone who appears to know what they're talking about rather than hiding behind sarcasm in an attempt to save face due to their lack of being able to provide the answer for the claims they made.

It may well yet turn out that there are some dodgy RFD's around, conducting illegal transactions, but I can't call him at the moment as he's away skiing apparently, no doubt spending his ill-gotten gains. Time will tell.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Scully

[Scully]

This is from Black's law dictionary

What is PLACE OF BUSINESS?

The location where a business is actually located; where most of the business activities, as well as their records are kept.

Law Dictionary: What is PLACE OF BUSINESS? definition of PLACE OF BUSINESS (Black's Law Dictionary)

Thanks Andy H, but again the sentence 'where MOST of the business activities' throws into play the fact that it isn't quite as straight forward as that, and there is never anything straight forward about British firearms legislation, as we all know.

[HDAV]

British legislation full stop

[Sussexboy]

So if it is necessary for a RFD to take a photocopy of your FAC/SGC then surely there needs to be some management regarding that. I assume that as somebody who is a retail RFD must be acting as or for a business then they must have a management plan for the personable identifying data that they store. There should be a SOP for how the data is stored, what the retention period is for photocopied documentation, and how that data is securely destroyed when either the retention period is exceeded or the data is no longer required. This SOP should be available to customers who ask for it. That is how it works in my industry. I don't understand how it can be different for a RFD. You don't have to give details of security arrangements but just outline the high level method. There is absolutely a need to keep such data for your customers for their sake as much as the RFD involved given the nature of the business undertaken and the potential penalties if it all goes TU. I do question the need for photocopying though when all transactions are recorded in the register. It is double working and a poor process.

[welshwarrior]

I was asked to keep copies of all certificates for all transactions, when I ask when they would inspect them they said they wodnt so I refused, I only ask for a copy of certificates for remote transactions.

[HDAV]

I was asked to keep copies of all certificates for all transactions, when I ask when they would inspect them they said they wodnt so I refused, I only ask for a copy of certificates for remote transactions.

 

Very sensible.

[timps]

I'm not thick Timps ( honestly, just a little slow ) and I'm sincerely grateful for the above, especially as there's no derogatory sarcasm involved, but two of your lines above seem to contradict each other unless I've misunderstood; those highlighted in bold italics.

The RFD in question has seen our tickets on many occasions, but prior to paying a deposit for a CF rifle at a game fair he hadn't seen it as it was undergoing renewal. He brought the rifle to my house where he completed the paperwork and took payment in full. As for the CF ammo, this was ordered at another game fair, but no deposit was paid. The transaction was completed by payment and the relevant paperwork completed from the back of his van in a farmyard while he was en route to conduct business elsewhere. He isn't the only RFD we have dealt with in a similar manner. For example, another whom I bought a shotgun off, took a deposit from me without seeing my SGC (I didn't take it so I couldn't be tempted, but it didn't work ) and offered to 'drop it off' while on his 'rounds' , and pick up another I'd part-exed in the deal.

Are there any circumstances to a RFD's register where they are allowed to do this?

 

The point I was trying to make in the highlighted text is Guns and section 1 amo require the cert and register to be filled out so cannot be considered sold at the game fair or place of business then just being 'delivered' at a later date.

 

If he tried to take the stance they were just being delivered the police would want to know why he was selling guns and section 1 amo without first seeing the cert and if he did see the cert why wasn't the paperwork filled out at the point of sale as require by the act.

 

This means the sale would have to take place where he sees the cert and fills in the relevant paperwork so that would be him 'and carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place' which would be in breach.

 

I was then trying to point out that although selling shotgun carts only require sight of the cert at the time of purchase and no paper work needs to be filled out he must see the cert at the time of purchase. So if he has not received payment or sight of cert then the sale has not be completed and therefore he is again in breach of "carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place". However if he has seen the cert and received payment whilst at his place of business he is just delivering and not in breach.

The last bit can be done remotly by faxing or emailing a copy of the licence as there is no paperwork to fill in.

 

The act has been amended in 1997 to give the RFD dispensation to

 

Subsection (1) above applies to the possession, purchase or acquisition of a firearm or ammunition in the ordinary course of the business of a firearms dealer notwithstanding that the firearm or ammunition is in the possession of, or purchased or acquired by, the dealer or his servant at a place which is not a place of business of the dealer or which he has not registered as a place of business under section 33 or 37 of this Act.]

 

Subsection 2 which deals with selling has not been amended to accommodate selling at a place which is not a place of business of the dealer or which he has not registered as a place of business.

 

This gives you a clear indication that as an RFD you can buy anywhere but you cannot sell everywhere otherwise section 2 would have also been amended.

 

As I say I doubt you will be done but he can be. The tariff is up to 6 months jail and/or a level 5 fine.

Edited January 2, 2015 by timps

[Scully]

I have no need to add anything too the discussion, others have done it for me. My original post was correct.

Well that remains to be seen. It all seems to be somewhat vague really. No one seems to be able to specify exactly what 'business premises' entails, including you, and including the back of a van. For all I know the van may be registered as part of his business premises. What may apply as one RFD's business premises, would appear to differ greatly from anothers.

If it turns out after all that these RFD's are acting illegally, and I have knowledge of this, then it leaves me duty bound to inform the authorities. I have no choice but to ask him when he gets back from his hol's, as we use him on a regular basis. I can't carry on conducting business with him if I know he's acting illegally, which is why I need to get my facts straight.

It will make interesting reading for those who may be interested in his paperwork as the date the transaction for the CF ammo paid for from the back of his van, as written on our FAC's, is dated for the day the transaction took place, which was a Sunday, and over 200 miles away from his shop.

[Scully]

The point I was trying to make in the highlighted text is Guns and section 1 amo require the cert and register to be filled out so cannot be considered sold at the game fair or place of business then just being 'delivered' at a later date. Thanks Timps. In the case of the CF ammo our tickets were filled out prior to the sale, but not a register as far as I know, but I could be wrong, the register may have been in his van. As said, we had previously ordered the ammo at the game fair.

 

If he tried to take the stance they were just being delivered the police would want to know why he was selling guns and section 1 amo without first seeing the cert and if he did see the cert why wasn't the paperwork filled out at the point of sale as require by the act.​ ​He hadn't seen my FAC prior to the sale of the CF rifle as it was undergoing renewal, but did see it and fill in the relevant parts prior to the sale taking place.

This means the sale would have to take place where he sees the cert and fills in the relevant paperwork Which was the case , as stated. I had only paid a deposit prior to this point. so that would be him 'and carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place' which would be in breach.

 

I was then trying to point out that although selling shotgun carts only require sight of the cert at the time of purchase and no paper work needs to be filled out he must see the cert at the time of purchase. He did. So if he has not received payment or sight of cert then the sale has not be completed and therefore he is again in breach of "carries on business as a firearms dealer at that place". However if he has seen the cert and received payment whilst at his place of business he is just delivering and not in breach.

The last bit can be done remotly by faxing or emailing a copy of the licence as there is no paperwork to fill in.

 

The act has been amended in 1997 to give the RFD dispensation to

 

Subsection (1) above applies to the possession, purchase or acquisition of a firearm or ammunition in the ordinary course of the business of a firearms dealer notwithstanding that the firearm or ammunition is in the possession of, or purchased or acquired by, the dealer or his servant at a place which is not a place of business of the dealer or which he has not registered as a place of business under section 33 or 37 of this Act.]

 

Subsection 2 which deals with selling has not been amended to accommodate selling at a place which is not a place of business of the dealer or which he has not registered as a place of business.

 

This gives you a clear indication that as an RFD you can buy anywhere but you cannot sell everywhere otherwise section 2 would have also been amended.

 

As I say I doubt you will be done but he can be. The tariff is up to 6 months jail and/or a level 5 fine.

If I've understood the above correctly then it would appear he is certainly breaking the law, unless there are some circumstances of which I'm not aware, which now means I have no choice but to contact him. Shame really; I've known him for some years and he's a nice bloke. It would seem however, that he's not the only one. Not really looking forward to this to be honest. Many thanks again.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Scully

[Scully]

Has Timps somehow not covered this in enough detail to satisy you?

He's been a great help thank you, much more so than others. Now I have the information I was after I can ask the RFD concerned, and one or two others. It seems strange to me that people in a position such as theirs should risk it all merely for the sake of making a few sales. Bit it takes all sorts. Will contact him asap and let you all know the outcome.

[Scully]

Said I would report back after contacting the RFD , which I did earlier today, using a mates ordered range finder as an excuse to call. Wasn't looking forward to it really as he's a nice bloke and I didn't really want to fall out with him. Anyhow, to my great relief he took it very well and thought it was quite amusing , and reassured me I had nothing at all to worry about as all his business is entirely legit' and above board and with the full knowledge of his licensing authority. He has been conducting business in this manner for many years apparently, totally legally, and that's good enough for me to be honest.

I haven't contacted the other RFD whom I've dealt with in the past in this way, as his deals aren't as favourable as this one, so wont be using him again anyhow, but will be dealing with the RFD in question again.

I'm not a troll, and haven't posted this because I wanted to create an argument about who's right and who isn't, but because I said I would. That's it as far as I'm concerned.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Scully

[lister22]

is only the RFD breaking the law ie the seller not the buyer

[Vince Green]

There are RFDs selling rifle ammo from "the back of a van" at all the major events at Bisley every summer. I often take the opportunity to stock up because they are cheaper usually. Some of them are there practically every week.

 

Coming back to the OP, the trouble with these sort of practices is that they grow and become established and it ends up with people believing that is the law. Over time that was what happened with primers and there have been attempts at doing the same with powder.

 

My local dealer was told he had to keep a record of all shotgun cartridge sales and he refused. Other dealers will buckle.