Kes Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) Its worth noting that - 'no deer' is a typical statement and usually based on an unwillingness to inspect the land or a reluctance to admit that signs of deer are not readily understood. If you are right however and keep pushing with polite firmness, simply put, you will succeed, because its the law. I am not surprised that many women are Heads of Firearms units - it is probably seen as a 'convenient' posting for female officers. However, what may have been missed is that, even if these women are anti - gun, they seem to me (at least) to be more focused on what is right and correct than their rather more arrogant male colleagues which is why, with a good case, appealing to them for a reconsideration will meet with a fair response - as in this case and my own previously. Edited February 4, 2015 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drut Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Trail cam evidence takes a little refuting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Am I missing something? Do FEO's in mainland UK have the ability to unilaterally support/block applications before submission? The FEO should be asking any necessary questions, giving the land the once over and then reporting factually to Feb. Certainly the FEO is entitled to offer opinion to Feb, but this should be based on fact. Ultimately the decision whether to grant or not lies with the SFLM and should be done in line with legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Am I missing something? Do FEO's in mainland UK have the ability to unilaterally support/block applications before submission? The FEO should be asking any necessary questions, giving the land the once over and then reporting factually to Feb. Certainly the FEO is entitled to offer opinion to Feb, but this should be based on fact. Ultimately the decision whether to grant or not lies with the SFLM and should be done in line with legislation. As far as I understand it, the system is adversarial to a degree. The FEO is basically employed to make the case for your certificate for X, Y or Z in a particular fashion; if their argument overrides the manager's arguments for not granting (almost always the case, to be fair), the certificate is granted. In a situation where the FEO is saying he can't support the application, you're in a spot of bother because he doesn't think he has enough to argue against the licensing manager's objections. This is where trail cam pics and all the other suggestions above will come in handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I offered to show my FLO the deer slots and we were out looking around the different farms in his car but when he saw the doe box I put up and we talked about safe shots it all became very straightforward and we did not actually go looking for slots. The farmer on one piece of land wrote a letter stating there were fallow deer on his land and that he was happy for me to shoot them. I think, even if the system is not perfect, that a bit of evidence and weight of serious argument/reason makes the world of difference rather than just "I want". I don't imagine we are all treated equally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valley boy Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 bring back laurance he`d go out of his way to help you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valley boy Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 i been shooting around hereford for 28 years there`s deer every where up there what do they know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 And some people complain about Durham, why not request a meeting with your flm and speak to the organ grinder not one of his monkies. As already stated could you not apply for a 243 for aolq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) And some people complain about Durham, why not request a meeting with your flm and speak to the organ grinder not one of his monkies. As already stated could you not apply for a 243 for aolq. The organ grinder has got involved and said that he is quite happy to back the FAO and he will not sign the variation for a 243 ' He went on to say that West Mercier police rated the groundfor a 243 years ago and they said ther is no deer on the ground and he thinks it should be rerated for the records and that alone will take upto 6 mths.He then said if he wishes to take it to court he dont care and if he should lose his case my mate thats is then he wont get anouther variation looked at for 5yrs now if that isent blackmail what is. He then went on to say that if he goes on paid stalk he never said how many he will have anouther look in the future which is not in the home office guide lines What gets me is the FAO has never set foot on this land and is going on so say records of Mercier police and anouther thing is what is the point in rating ground upto a243 and never letting some one have a 243 to shoot on it Allso all this rating of ground is cobblers you should have the same backstop and safety on any piece of ground Edited February 5, 2015 by Rim Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) The organ grinder has got involved and said that he is quite happy to back the FAO and he will not sign the variation for a 243 ' He went on to say that West Mercier police rated the groundfor a 243 years ago and they said ther is no deer on the ground and he thinks it should be rerated for the records and that alone will take upto 6 mths.He then said if he wishes to take it to court he dont care and if he should lose his case my mate thats is then he wont get anouther variation looked at for 5yrs now if that isent blackmail what is. He then went on to say that if he goes on paid stalk he never said how many he will have anouther look in the future which is not in the home office guide lines What gets me is the FAO has never set foot on this land and is going on so say records of Mercier police and anouther thing is what is the point in rating ground upto a243 and never letting some one have a 243 to shoot on it Allso all this rating of ground is cobblers you should have the same backstop and safety on any piece of ground Well if thats the case I would demand my shooting org sorts it asap as thats what he pays his money for, has he no other land he could use. Edited February 5, 2015 by Luckyshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well if thats the case I would demand my shooting org sorts it asap as thats what he pays his money for, has he no other land he could use. He got land to shoot fox but none rated for 243 what gets me is why rate land up to a 243 and say there is no deer on it maybe there wasn't when they visit it years ago so why rate it to a243.He is in BASC but my mate is now afraid that if he loses the case he wont have anything to shoot and he haven't got the funds for a court case I don't think BASC will take the full hit of the cost that's GWENT for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 The threat of 'take us to court' is an empty one and frankly designed to put people off going further. Loosing an appeal does not prevent a further request for a variation, how can it, its ridiculous. If there is hard evidence of this we would like to see it please. As to funding a case for appeal, if the need arises, that's simply down to having a an expert firearms lawyer review the case for appeal and if there is a viable case in law if can be funded by our members legal expenses policy David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Talk to BASC - his organisation - it would be interesting to see if the new firearms insurance deals with what is basically a case of a couple of opinionated coppers. In my view, it would be worth talking to west mercia and getting their perspective but BASC will do this for you. As for stalking - he must give you a definitive view now or otherwise how can he say you should do some stalking if he doesnt know how much experience each stalk confers? There is always the Police and Crime commissioner if BASc cant/dont help and then there is the PCC. I wonder who is trying to get a better service on our behalf when rubbish like this is being practiced by the police. P.S. I agree it has nothing to do with the suitability of the land as safety lies entirely with the shooter and, when he has an open ticket he can shoot in a 4 acre field, provided he has the owners permission and exercises his judgement as to safety. Keep going and tell us what BASC says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Appeals and the funding of same are based on matters of law - hence my request for more hard information. If the applicant shows good reason for the calibre and the land is safe for said calibre then the grant or variation must surely be given So its a matter of showing there are deer on the land and or the applicant has other access to other land where there are deer he can shoot, if this cannot be shown then a complaint to the PCC is pointless - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) Appeals and the funding of same are based on matters of law - hence my request for more hard information. If the applicant shows good reason for the calibre and the land is safe for said calibre then the grant or variation must surely be given So its a matter of showing there are deer on the land and or the applicant has other access to other land where there are deer he can shoot, if this cannot be shown then a complaint to the PCC is pointless - I think this is the problem the other land he got hasn't got Deer on it but the land he apply for the 243 hasn't got Deer there holding but they do pass through there so they might be there today and not be seen for maybe months but how can they grant a person with a 308 and had 1 stalk and hasn't got land passed to shoot it on this person was granted by the very FAO we are talking about David I think the rep of BASC was Mike every I may have spelt name wrong but he knows about it Edited February 5, 2015 by Rim Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) I think this is the problem the other land he got hasn't got Deer on it but the land he apply for the 243 hasn't got Deer there holding but they do pass through there so they might be there today and not be seen for maybe months but how can they grant a person with a 308 and had 1 stalk and hasn't got land passed to shoot it on this person was granted by the very FAO we are talking about David I think the rep of BASC was Mike every I may have spelt name wrong but he knows about it Going off what you are saying I would get your mate to request a 243 for aolq instead of deer and see how that goes, afterall a 243 should be issued for that even Durham issue for aolq without deer mentioned. Edited February 5, 2015 by Luckyshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Going off what you are saying I would get your mate to request a 243 for aolq instead of deer and see how that goes, afterall a 243 should be issued for that even Durham issue for aolq without deer mentioned. Not here they wont give a 243 other than Deer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 It seems to all pivot on the chap showing he has deer on the land he has access to, its as simple as that. Is it possible to get a letter from the landowner stating that there is deer on the land and he wants them controlled, just because there is not a resident breeding population is neither here nor there if they are passing through and the landowner wants them controlled. David PS yes I know Mike, he is one of our Senior Firearms officers, ex police and ex FEO to boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 He cleared with the land owner befor he applied they want the ground rerated which will only come back as Fox clearance for it so a 22-250 will be it i bet you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Is there a letter from the landowner stating there are deer getting onto his land and that he wants them controlled? Or does the letter just say that the landowner is giving his permission for the chap to shoot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 There is another way which may be worth exploring if your friend can afford some paid stalks. Four is the maximum I have heard of and you will need someone to confirm in writing you have been on those stalks. Then, assuming you have centrefire experience with your area, ask for a rifle for deer stalking by simply buying stalks when you can. This should allow you a CF (say .243) on an open cert, if you already have CF experience of more than 2 years. That means you can use it where you think its safe with AOLQ. Failing this as I mentioned before, your landowner needs to write to confirm the presence of deer on his land and that he gives you permission to shoot them. If you have a CF already and they refuse a .243 then you can go to BASC with an almost cast iron justification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think that the chap in question has just lost his job and cant afford to take paid for stalking, but i agree as I said in my penultimate post, if the landowner can confirm deer are on the land and he wants them controlled that should overcome the problem, and yes AOLQ will overcome many problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think that the chap in question has just lost his job and cant afford to take paid for stalking, but i agree as I said in my penultimate post, if the landowner can confirm deer are on the land and he wants them controlled that should overcome the problem, and yes AOLQ will overcome many problems! Noted and mentioned "if you can afford it" above. There may be someone in the PW Collective who could offer some 'swap shooting' to help or, like a fellow stalker who just gave me some antlers to play with for making sticks. If I had a deer permission nearer to you I would offer some time. Sadly Cheshire has no substantial deer population, so I travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 how is he planning to buy the rifle etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 how is he planning to buy the rifle etc? He could be getting it given to him as a gift. He may have a tight budget for the rifle and not have enough to go on paid stalks. This isn't the point, he has land on which there are deer and has permission to shoot them. He also has 13 years experience with a centerfire rifle so it just proves the point that his FEO/licencing dept are incompetent and standing in the way of someone who is within his rights to have a .243 as he has provided 'good reason' which is all that is required of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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