overandunder2012 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 If we have left the eu before the next election then the United Kingdom Independence Party will have no need to exist as their remit would be completed. indeed i totally agree and if we havent left (god forbid) it will be because the voters didn't want it. either way its pretty much over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 There you go again making accusations and assumptions, it is on record that if a referendum for a straight in out of the eu is done then ukip has fulfilled it's role and will cease to be. As for the ethical standing of a gutter rat comment,what has he said or done that is so unethical? or do you just believe that but have no actual fact to back it up? That's what I said. IF the referendum takes place (once again, I will say that I believe it will not take place) then there is no reason for the 'party' to exist. With regards to your second point, I indeed believe he has no ethics, and I formed this opinion following the news and this is the feeling I get. His physical presence is somewhat revolting, and his manerisms, tone and general conduct lead me to believe his ethical standing is rather low. In addition to this, I feel that the 'I resign now but will come back in four months' statement is nothing but a sly way of remaining in power. Of course this is my opinion, and I might be wrong. I thought we were allowed to express our thoughts. I am sure you will agree with me that, come September, if he decides to stand again (I have every reason to believe he will, but I might be wrong, who knows?) there will be nobody to opose him. Just like last time round, if I remember well (please correct me if I am wrong), and the same way other 'leaders' in the past (Stalin, Putin, Kim Jong-un, Sadam, Gaddafi and other beacons of Democracy) 'won' consecutive leadership 'contests'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 The dog would have got it right:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Sometimes coming second can scare the winners. Of course it does. But think about this: Would the Tories, Labour and whoever thinks/feels they lost votes to ukip not have enough time and the knowhow to better prepare themselves for the next election in five years? I believe that in this instance, coming second was a major ETHICAL win for the party you support, albeit an empty one and a HUGE lost opportunity. Next time the other parties will be ready. Perhaps they underestimated what damage they would endure this time, but I doubt they will make the same mistake again next time. Only time will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 That's what I said. IF the referendum takes place (once again, I will say that I believe it will not take place) then there is no reason for the 'party' to exist. With regards to your second point, I indeed believe he has no ethics, and I formed this opinion following the news and this is the feeling I get. His physical presence is somewhat revolting, and his manerisms, tone and general conduct lead me to believe his ethical standing is rather low. In addition to this, I feel that the 'I resign now but will come back in four months' statement is nothing but a sly way of remaining in power. Of course this is my opinion, and I might be wrong. I thought we were allowed to express our thoughts. I am sure you will agree with me that, come September, if he decides to stand again (I have every reason to believe he will, but I might be wrong, who knows?) there will be nobody to opose him. Just like last time round, if I remember well (please correct me if I am wrong), and the same way other 'leaders' in the past (Stalin, Putin, Kim Jong-un, Sadam, Gaddafi and other beacons of Democracy) 'won' consecutive leadership 'contests'. So what did you base your comparison with all the communist and middle east leaders on this time, another gut feeling? Why not compare him with Churchill? he chopped and changed to get into and keep power and had more comebacks than take that.Or does that not fit into the image you are trying to convey to people about someone you hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 The sweaties have just made the term UKIP unnecessary, how about Farage starting the ENP and let the rest rot.ungrateful toss pots. KW The sweaties have just made the term UKIP unnecessary, how about Farage starting the ENP and let the rest rot.ungrateful toss pots. KW You might have a point there, in that Scotland is a very different place now, and all political parties know it. I will be very interested to see what Cameron does next, as the pressure to act is clear to all. More consessions? Tougher stance? either way it is a perilous situation and a very interesting one to watch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) So what did you base your comparison with all the communist and middle east leaders on this time, another gut feeling? Why not compare him with Churchill? he chopped and changed to get into and keep power and had more comebacks than take that.Or does that not fit into the image you are trying to convey to people about someone you hate. Don't be daft. I do not hate farce, the same way I do not hate a used car salesman or a cold caller from double glazing company. I just think his views are ridiculus, I am not interested in the product he is selling and I think he looks slimy. Edited May 8, 2015 by Psyxologos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Don't be daft. I do not hate farce, the same way I do not hate a used car salesman or a cold caller from double glazing company. I just think his views are ridiculus, I am not interested in the product he is selling and I think he looks slimy. So why compare him to despots from history or use derogatory language to describe him?have you ever met him? or spoken to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 So why compare him to despots from history or use derogatory language to describe him?have you ever met him? or spoken to him? But you said it yourself. the secret is in the word despot. I consider him to be one. I believe he ticks all the boxes to describe him as one. Once again, this is my opinion, you are perfectly entitled to disagree. As a matter of fact I have met, spoke, drunk and enjoyed a walk with him. Yes, that is right. ENJOYED. We spoke about many things, and that included issues to do with Europe. He was a Tory then, and his views were NOWHERE near to what they are now. Which leads me to believe that either he had a dramatic change of heart (we are alle ntitled to that) or that he is portraying a very different persona to the voting public, for reasons I consider quite utilitarian. I have a huge problem with utilitarianism, especially when it is practiced to protect a hidden agenda or out of a grudge. I happen to believe that his reasons for making all the noise he is making is personal feuds dating back to his Tory years and he is trying to prove his former Tory friends he can get one on them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 So what did you base your comparison with all the communist and middle east leaders on this time, another gut feeling? Why not compare him with Churchill? he chopped and changed to get into and keep power and had more comebacks than take that.Or does that not fit into the image you are trying to convey to people about someone you hate. I agree Farage has something in common with Churchill they both got humiliated in a general election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Of course it does. But think about this: Would the Tories, Labour and whoever thinks/feels they lost votes to ukip not have enough time and the knowhow to better prepare themselves for the next election in five years? I believe that in this instance, coming second was a major ETHICAL win for the party you support, albeit an empty one and a HUGE lost opportunity. Next time the other parties will be ready. Perhaps they underestimated what damage they would endure this time, but I doubt they will make the same mistake again next time. Only time will tell... First they have to figure out how to appeal to the 4 million that voted ukip,if they do that and start offering what ukip are offering then again ukip will have achieved it's aim,i still find it hard to believe that a lot of people cannot comprehend that ukip are gaining support because they listened to what people feel is important to them and then acted on it. The main parties have become so detached from real life that they no longer have a feel for what the electorate may want,they embraced the american model of sound bites and gestures,never answering a question and being as slick as they like, but this detaches them from the real world. The opportunity was not lost, it would have been unrealistic to think a fledgling party would end up with loads of seats in Westminster and be calling the shots,but they have made the other parties scared and looking at how to engage again with the electorate,that can only be a good thing. Even if you didn't vote for UKIP you should thank them for waking up the other parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I agree Farage has something in common with Churchill they both got humiliated in a general election And one was buried in the largest state funeral ever seen in it's time despite being humiliated in an election. The other is still alive, but please tell me how he was humiliated?a fledgling party taking over 12 % of the vote (4 million people ) that is an astounding achievement in British politics hardly a humiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) The opportunity was not lost, it would have been unrealistic to think a fledgling party would end up with loads of seats in Westminster and be calling the shots,but they have made the other parties scared and looking at how to engage again with the electorate,that can only be a good thing. Even if you didn't vote for UKIP you should thank them for waking up the other parties. I beg to differ on your first statement. I think the opportunity/mopmentum is lost, and I wrote why in my previous post. I never said that there were cplaims of calling the shots, but there were talks about 'earthquake' and the like. I do not see the role of ukip as having waken the other parties. In my eyes it has diverted the debate from what really matters (NHS, Social issues, Economy, Education) to a minor issue that really has very small impact in the lives of ordinary people, at least looking at the wider picture. You and others who voted for them feel otherwise. This is your prerogative, nothing wrong with that. I just think that there are more important/pressing/serious things we need to address in this country. Edited May 8, 2015 by Psyxologos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I beg to differ on your first statement. I think the opportunity/mopmentum is lost, and I wrote why in my previous post. I never said that there were cplaims of calling the shots, but there were talks about 'earthquake' and the like. I do not see the role of ukip as having waken the other parties. In my eyes it has diverted the debate from what really matters (NHS, Social issues, Economy, Education) to a minor issue that really has very small impact in the lives of ordinary people, at least looking at the wider picture. You and others who voted for them feel otherwise. This is your prerogative, nothing wrong with that. I just think that there are more important/pressing/serious things we need to address in this country. But UKIP are strongly for the nhs the economy and education and have expressed that in interviews and debates,it is just that people chose to ignore the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Its a fair point asking why one Scottish vote is worth 100 English votes when it comes to seats. SNP 1.5mil - 56 seats Ukip 3.5mil - 1 seat Green 1mil - 1 seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Its a fair point asking why one Scottish vote is worth 100 English votes when it comes to seats. SNP 1.5mil - 56 seats Ukip 3.5mil - 1 seat Green 1mil - 1 seat It is the system in place ,to be fair everyone knew the rules of the game, that is why no one is complaining to loud.but it does raise questions as to the validity of the FPTP system.I cannot see the main parties in a hurry to change it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 With regards to your second point, I indeed believe he has no ethics, and I formed this opinion following the news and this is the feeling I get. His physical presence is somewhat revolting, and his manerisms, tone and general conduct lead me to believe his ethical standing is rather low. In addition to this, I feel that the 'I resign now but will come back in four months' statement is nothing but a sly way of remaining in power. Of course this is my opinion, and I might be wrong. I thought we were allowed to express our thoughts. If he does return to the melee he will certainly be amongst good company then, given the 'snake-oil salesman' types we have in politics right now. Given your opinion of him he will sit right in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) I believe UKIP finished second in around 120 constituencies, they had approx. 3 times the popular vote of the SNP who gained 56 seats whilst UKIP gained 1. This is not a political statement, it is a practical statement, there is something wrong with a political system that alloys this. Edit as for UKIP Humiliated, far from it I would suggest. Edited May 9, 2015 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11M1VmV88O4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 This is the problem with antiquated system UKIP gain 3.5 million votes and get one seat, SNP gain 1.5 million and get 56 seats Not really. As I understand it PR will only serve the large population centres. Their priorities are different to those that live in the country. Why should city folk set the agenda? ATB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11M1VmV88O4 Trolltastic ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Not really. As I understand it PR will only serve the large population centres. Their priorities are different to those that live in the country. Why should city folk set the agenda? ATB Being discussed here - http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/311978-proportional-representation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Even if you didn't vote for UKIP you should thank them for waking up the other parties. theres some truth in that they did make politics interesting again so i agree they were a game changer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxon T Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I would not pay too much attention to that mate. It is very skewed, and very far off the mark. The SNP will not do so well, the Tories will not do that well either, and Labour and Liberal Democrats will do quite a lot better than the exit poll suggests. I am watching the exit poll for Sunderland and I compare it with the actual result. Very very different. Blimey you were right! .... oh no, wait a second. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTEMUP Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 and hats of to you to +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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