Drug Smugglers executed in Indonesia

[poontang]

this is embarrassing...When i saw the name andrew.... &&0

 

Easy mistake to make.

 

They were both born in Australia, one to Chinese migrants and one to Tamil migrants.

 

Indonesia is, I believe the most highly populated muslim country in the world. Their laws are strict and their penalties harsh. It's well known, especially in that area of the world that they have a zero tolerance approach to drug smuggling.

Whether we agree with it or not, it is their law. We expect people to abide by and respect our laws or suffer the consequences, so it's only right Indonesia are afforded the same respect.

 

For what it's worth I wouldn't support the reintroduction of the death penalty in this country...unless someone was really, really naughty.

[Mr-Sheen]

Mr Sheen - I admire your capacity for not letting facts cloud the issue. I agree with the right of Indonesia to pass their own laws and implement them.

 

I cannot condemn them, as you do, because it is not our business.

 

The answer is to commit that type of crime in a country where they give you a stiff warning on cardboard. Committing the crime in a country with a death penalty is stupid. They paid the price of criminality and stupidity.

As with FalconFN, i fundamentally oppose the death penalty. Here are some facts on the death penalty from a credible authors.

 

 

• A July 2009 study titled "DO EXECUTIONS LOWER HOMICIDE RATES?: THE VIEWS OF LEADING CRIMINOLOGISTS" by Michael L. Radelet and Traci L. LaCock, demonstrates an overwhelming consensus among criminologists that the empirical research conducted on the deterrence question strongly supports the conclusion that the death penalty does not add deterrent effects to those already achieved by long imprisonment.

a study of the deterrence value of the death penalty focused on whether the death penalty deterred the murder of police officers. The researchers surveyed a thirteen year period of police homicides. The study concluded " we find no consistent evidence that capital punishment influenced police killings during the 1976-1989 period. . . . [P]olice do not appear to have been afforded an added measure of protection against homicide by capital punishment." (W. Bailey and R. Peterson, Murder, Capital Punishment, and Deterrence: A Review of the Evidence and an Examination of Police Killings, 50 Journal of Social Issues 53, 71 1994)

 

so don't let facts stand in the way gordon, you might learn something

 

I feel that as a caring human, it is my business. Just because we don't live in the same country as they do does not mean i should not care, that is ridiculous. I do not believe that the death penalty can be justified.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mr-Sheen

[Mr-Sheen]

 

Easy mistake to make.

 

They were both born in Australia, one to Chinese migrants and one to Tamil migrants.

 

Indonesia is, I believe the most highly populated muslim country in the world. Their laws are strict and their penalties harsh. It's well known, especially in that area of the world that they have a zero tolerance approach to drug smuggling.

Whether we agree with it or not, it is their law. We expect people to abide by and respect our laws or suffer the consequences, so it's only right Indonesia are afforded the same respect.

 

For what it's worth I wouldn't support the reintroduction of the death penalty in this country...unless someone was really, really naughty.

 

I understand that the law is their's and its not for any of us to change, but it would be nice to change public opinion with regards to punishment, especially capital punishment in countries such as Indonesia as it could make a difference to so many lives. I don't think people living in few of their government is ever a good thing!

 

 

[Gordon R]

Mr Sheen - I don't need to read some interesting facts from credible authors. Perhaps you could e-mail the Government in Indonesia and point out that they are wrong - in your opinion - and that of some credible authors.

If they died because they were criminals or merely because they were so stupid that they ignored the law - I don't really care.

It is their business not ours. As has been pointed out - our opinion counts in this country. Some might say it doesn't - even though we live here. Why should we condemn another country?

As a caring person, I thought that they got what they deserved.

so don't let facts stand in the way gordon, you might learn something

 

 

Once you have stopped patronising me, you might check your own research. It is about killing Police Officers - not drug trafficking. It is also well out of date.

 

You really don't bother about credible facts.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gordon R

[welsh1]

I am against the death penalty being brought back in this country,but i have no sympathy for drug smugglers,they knew the law if they smuggled into that country and they have paid the price,but it does worry me that there were initial reports that the judge was asking for what was basically a bribe to give them a jail sentence rather than execution,but the government stepped in because it's popularity is shaky, so they are showing they are in control and firm.This does not sit easy with me.

 

So am i sorry they are dead-no

Do i think the death sentence is effective-no otherwise they wouldn't be executing people

Do i think Indonesia has a fair legal system-no they have a lot of corruption.

[grrclark]

Gordon, I agree.

 

Their belief system is entirely different to ours and when we visit their country we should absolutely expect to observe and respect that.

 

In many respects they are very liberal and accommodating to western interests, but in some issues they have a red line. Whether we agree with it or not makes no difference, it is their line to draw and we cross it at our own risk.

 

They played a high stakes game and they lost, 100% their choice. No sympathy from me.

[Mr-Sheen]

No obviously not as you can pass judgment without knowing any facts about me.

 

I think its very dangerous taking the 'they were criminals so it didn't matter' stance, I'm sure at some point you have probably broken the speed limit, which would make you a criminal, and in the eyes of people like you, it wouldn't be a great loss if you copped it. However I'm sure your family would disagree.

I accept that they have their own laws and i won't be able change it, doesn't mean i can't fundamentally disagree with them. However if i listened to you it would seem I'm not allowed an opinion.

 

Clearly caring.


Gordon, i think its quite patronising to enter the conversation with accusing me of not letting the facts cloud my opinion. so please don't take the moral high ground.

The part about killing police officers is irrelevant, the research concludes that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent, which is the point.

One study is dates, however the 2009 study is clearly not.

 

heres another in date study

 

https://math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/my%20DP%20paper,%20current%20edit.htm

The number of studies that show the same results are remarkable, yet there are very few that say go against these view's, but don't let that change your mind.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mr-Sheen

[Mr-Sheen]

I am against the death penalty being brought back in this country,but i have no sympathy for drug smugglers,they knew the law if they smuggled into that country and they have paid the price,but it does worry me that there were initial reports that the judge was asking for what was basically a bribe to give them a jail sentence rather than execution,but the government stepped in because it's popularity is shaky, so they are showing they are in control and firm.This does not sit easy with me.

 

So am i sorry they are dead-no

Do i think the death sentence is effective-no otherwise they wouldn't be executing people

Do i think Indonesia has a fair legal system-no they have a lot of corruption.

So if the judge was to take a bribe, then there was clearly no fair trial. No fair trial and the access to no legal representation wasn't exactly going to give them any chance to state what case they might of had.

[grrclark]

I am against the death penalty being brought back in this country,but i have no sympathy for drug smugglers,they knew the law if they smuggled into that country and they have paid the price,but it does worry me that there were initial reports that the judge was asking for what was basically a bribe to give them a jail sentence rather than execution,but the government stepped in because it's popularity is shaky, so they are showing they are in control and firm.This does not sit easy with me.

 

So am i sorry they are dead-no

Do i think the death sentence is effective-no otherwise they wouldn't be executing people

Do i think Indonesia has a fair legal system-no they have a lot of corruption.

Rob, I agree that corruption is very troubling, but it wasn't corruption that upped the penalty to something it shouldn't be, it was corruption that attempted to lessen it.

 

The penalty is death and they got the penalty, the judge should be banged up for offering something less.

[Gordon R]

Mr Sheen - I have my opinion - I might be right or wrong. You are entitled to yours, although you don't afford others the same luxury.

 

I think you are a well intentioned do-gooder, out of touch with reality, but good luck to you.

[welsh1]

Rob, I agree that corruption is very troubling, but it wasn't corruption that upped the penalty to something it shouldn't be, it was corruption that attempted to lessen it.

 

The penalty is death and they got the penalty, the judge should be banged up for offering something less.

I understand what you are saying,and this has me a bit tied for the right use of words,yes a judge wanted a bribe to commute the sentence, but the part to focus on is he was bribable,this sits uneasily with me,if a system is corrupt miscarriages of justice will be made and inevitably innocents will die.

 

In these executions i understand that they were bang to rights with enough drugs to keep the west end happy for a weekend,and as you said they knew the penalties entering the country and as i said i have no sympathy for them.

[grrclark]

I know where you are coming from, if there is any degree of corruption then the whole shebang can be corrupt so any decision is unsafe.

 

Even more reason not to play with fire, we know that honest justice has an unenviable record in some parts of the world, which is of course why western libertarians always try to gain clemency or some sort of mercy.

 

There isn't an easy answer other than don't smuggle drugs in Indonesia.

Edited April 28, 2015 by grrclark

[Mr-Sheen]

Mr Sheen - I have my opinion - I might be right or wrong. You are entitled to yours, although you don't afford others the same luxury.

 

I think you are a well intentioned do-gooder, out of touch with reality, but good luck to you.

People are allowed to have their own opinions, and as you said, they might be right or wrong. A long time ago people were of the opinion that the earth was flat, but the consensus changed because a few people challenged that opinion, so i would hope with the facts that are available regarding the death penalty, people might one day see that it doesn't work and change the opinion that they have. Im not forcing my opinion on anyone, I'm just promoting the facts regarding the issue.

 

Well without do-gooders, nothing good gets done.

 

[Gordon R]

Mr Sheen - feel free to post facts about the effects of the death penalty on drug traffickers in Indonesia. Any other facts are just a bit silly and irrelevant.

 

The Flat Earth brigade are alive and well. They don't agree with Indonesia's death penalty either.

[saddler]

Spent an interesting month in Indonesia a few years back.

The whole country is on bribes...it's part of the infrastructure, and the single biggest thing stopping them from becoming on a par with Malaysia...

[fern01]

I truly believe that this execution was wrong.

 

Only one of the firing squad should have been issued with a blank cartridge.

[Mr-Sheen]

Gordon, the studies are relevant and facts are clear, the death penalty does not deter crime, hence why people are still smuggling drugs in Indonesia.

When the country is run on bribes, what legitimacy is there to the sentences handed out by the judges? None. Its quite simple, you are putting people to death without a fair trial, surely you can see that is wrong?

[Harnser]

Many will say that capital punishment does not deter crime , so what , I believe in retribution a word that is frowned upon today . I would hang all drug dealers in this country and get satisfaction from knowing that they chose a life style to cause misery for others and paid the ultimate price . Yes retribution .

 

Harnser

[Mr-Sheen]

Many will say that capital punishment does not deter crime , so what , I believe in retribution a word that is frowned upon today . I would hang all drug dealers in this country and get satisfaction from knowing that they chose a life style to cause misery for others and paid the ultimate price . Yes retribution .

 

Harnser

To think that the anyone in their right mind would issue a firearm to somebody that would openly admit they would gleefully watch somebody die is unreal. I seriously think you need counselling and a visit from your constabulary.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mr-Sheen

[welsh1]

I know where you are coming from, if there is any degree of corruption then the whole shebang can be corrupt so any decision is unsafe.

 

Even more reason not to play with fire, we know that honest justice has an unenviable record in some parts of the world, which is of course why western libertarians always try to gain clemency or some sort of mercy.

 

There isn't an easy answer other than don't smuggle drugs in Indonesia.

And that is the answer to this whole debate.,if you don't want to die don't take the risk.

[Gordon R]

Mr Sheen - I am sincerely glad that you are not part of the judiciary. If you are - we are in trouble.

 

Publish the report which says the death penalty is having no effect in Indonesia. All this garbage about " it can't be a deterrent, because it is still going on" is just that - garbage.

 

There are a few less drug traffickers in Indonesia, as of today, so it has had a direct and measurable effect.

 

PS Mr Sheen - look up the difference in satisfaction and glee. It might expand your education, which is sadly lacking.

 

Your comments to Harnser are a disgrace.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gordon R

[grrclark]

To think that the anyone in their right mind would issue a firearm to somebody that would openly admit they would gleefully watch somebody die is unreal. I seriously think you need counselling and a visit from your constabulary.

 

 

Your reasonable arguments on previous posts are let down by that one.

 

You are making an emotive and false inference.

[welsh1]

To think that the anyone in their right mind would issue a firearm to somebody that would openly admit they would gleefully watch somebody die is unreal. I seriously think you need counselling and a visit from your constabulary.

 

 

He is entitled to his view as are you,why descend into pettiness, i am against the death penalty in this country,but i can see both sides and would rather argue my point than just be rude.

[Scully]

things have moved on.

Have they? How?

[Mr-Sheen]

Why would be in trouble?

The trouble with finding research regarding Indonesia is that it has relatively few universities, let alone ones that would publish research that would undermine its own corrupt government. Many universities oversea's don't have the funding to research their own social criminology let alone another countries, so research regarding the death penalty from any credible sources must be considered first, as opposed to your own hugely flawed logic that by killing two drug dealers, you will have two less, as they will immediately be replaced by other people in dire situations looking to make money, the cycle continues.

It may be garbage in your mind, but obviously being Gordon R of pigeon watch entitles you to a deeper understanding of criminology that academics that have studied this field all of their life.

PS Gordon, executing two prisoners is a disgrace. What i said to Harnser is an opinion, one which i am entitled to.

Your reasonable arguments on previous posts are let down by that one.

You are making an emotive and false inference.

it may be emotive, but would you please consider how this would read to somebody from outside the forum. It very much comes across that somebody with access to firearms is callous, and has little care for the suffering of others. This is clearly not something that we as a community want to portray, especially with the pressure that is on fieldsports as it is.

 

He is entitled to his view as are you,why descend into pettiness, i am against the death penalty in this country,but i can see both sides and would rather argue my point than just be rude.

 

 

Welsh1, please just consider how this would look if somebody from outside the forum read what was posted there.

 

Have they? How?

We no longer support the death penalty in this country, and we used to. Things have moved on.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mr-Sheen