Marksman1997 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 We have two problems a stroppy rambler who threatens you with her husband and shooting into the dark! Ones annoying the others dangerous . John" it wasn't dark. it was a lovely day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 So, she was trespassing? She heard shots but continued over private land knowing that shooting was going on, eventually alerting you to her presence. At that point I think I would have stopped shooting to ensure I knew her exact location, just in case and if safe to continue, would have done. Reaction to her threat would have been immediate and without compromise. I would have reported her to the police immediately. Also, the point above about risk assessment may seem OTT but isn't a bad call as it demonstrates that all reasonable and responsible steps to assess suitability for that location for zeroing were taken and that any complaint arising due to the village idiot trespassing across land when clearly shooting was in progress would have most likely resulted in her being warned. I was recently in a similar position. I was zeroing my HMR and used a long field bordered by woodland, with the targets laying between 75 and 200m with a substantial clay bank as a backstop. Safe as houses, no ricochets and had a spotter with me to keep an eye out for any village idiot who might decide to gatecrash on private land which shooting was in progress. There was a chap yelling at us from a public footpath some 250m south of our position and despite it being perfectly safe, we stopped shooting until he'd passed well out of earshot. It's not hard to empathise with someone on a walk on a public footpath not knowing where shooting is coming from but I would not take kindly to being threatened by anyone. That would be dealt with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksman1997 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 So, she was trespassing? She heard shots but continued over private land knowing that shooting was going on, eventually alerting you to her presence. At that point I think I would have stopped shooting to ensure I knew her exact location, just in case and if safe to continue, would have done. Reaction to her threat would have been immediate and without compromise. I would have reported her to the police immediately. Also, the point above about risk assessment may seem OTT but isn't a bad call as it demonstrates that all reasonable and responsible steps to assess suitability for that location for zeroing were taken and that any complaint arising due to the village idiot trespassing across land when clearly shooting was in progress would have most likely resulted in her being warned. I was recently in a similar position. I was zeroing my HMR and used a long field bordered by woodland, with the targets laying between 75 and 200m with a substantial clay bank as a backstop. Safe as houses, no ricochets and had a spotter with me to keep an eye out for any village idiot who might decide to gatecrash on private land which shooting was in progress. There was a chap yelling at us from a public footpath some 250m south of our position and despite it being perfectly safe, we stopped shooting until he'd passed well out of earshot. It's not hard to empathise with someone on a walk on a public footpath not knowing where shooting is coming from but I would not take kindly to being threatened by anyone. That would be dealt with. only 18 and just got license a few months ago so this is my first real encounter. I'm sure i will have a few more over the years. Hopefully i will be able to handle it a bit better. I understand why they might not be keen on it as honestly i think the 17hmr is crazy loud even with a silencer. My friend thinks his silencer isn't the best. Don't know the make but he said it was for his 22lr but gun dealer said it would work ok. What would be the best silencer for a 17hmr? As for a risk assessment, i would really like to do one as i feel it is a great spot to set the scope up or do some target shooting with longer range centerfire rifles so will be out there again. Was wondering if there was a printable risk assessment sheet or something. Or what sort of info would i need. How detailed does it need to be?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 The silencer is more for your benefit than anything else. Nothing will take away that sonic 'crack'. Your shooting organisation should be able to help with risk assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) only 18 and just got license a few months ago so this is my first real encounter. I'm sure i will have a few more over the years. Hopefully i will be able to handle it a bit better. I understand why they might not be keen on it as honestly i think the 17hmr is crazy loud even with a silencer. My friend thinks his silencer isn't the best. Don't know the make but he said it was for his 22lr but gun dealer said it would work ok. What would be the best silencer for a 17hmr? As for a risk assessment, i would really like to do one as i feel it is a great spot to set the scope up or do some target shooting with longer range centerfire rifles so will be out there again. Was wondering if there was a printable risk assessment sheet or something. Or what sort of info would i need. How detailed does it need to be?? RE silencer...they're a moderator which means that they reduce dB but can't kill it as the bullet's pushing a shock wave beyond speed of sound which cannot be silenced effectively. SAK or Sirroco are two of the better on a budget. I use these and they moderate by around 25 to 28dB (I think those figures are from tests). RE risk assessment: It's a simple matter of systematic examination of the surrounding environment, the tasks (in this case zeroing or plinking); identification of hazards with the potential for harm (to you or to others) and the risk or likelihood of those hazards resulting in accident or injury. Hazards may include but not be limited to: No effective backstop (hazard for others); Ricochets; sun to your front preventing you from seeing others; nearby public footpaths; nearby tree lines which may obscure the presence of others, be that authorised or unauthorised access; dead ground between you and the target nearby public highway There are likely to be others specifically related to the ground that you shoot on but the above gives some idea of what to look for. I would suggest that the outcome if any of these hazards are of significance at all is "High". I would keep things simple and use a matrix such as Low, Medium or high as the outcomes. Low meaning unlikely to present a significant risk of accident or injury with little or no mitivgation required; Medium meaning that risks can be managed effectively with procedures or changes put into place to safegaurd those affected, and High meaning that current shooting practice in that location is not suitable due to high risks which cannot be effectively managed. Don't get into any more detail than that. Keep it simple, keep it effective. If you make up some A4 sheets split up into columns and rows. on the far left you have "activity", then working right, the next column might be "potential Hazard", the next might be "those affected", the next "likely outcome (no management)", the next might be "Risk (ie Low, Medium or High), the next "Management of risk" and the last "Outcome". There will obviously be multiple rows for each activity as each identifies a risk. Include on a separate piece of paper a B/W map section of the land with the shooting positions and any public highways or paths etc and any key features. That will get you into a positive mental habit of assessment mentally. This is the whole point of risk assessment. It's not about the forms or how you record it, it's about thinking in terms of risk identification and management. The form is merely a means of recording those thought processes. Personally, for anyone new to shooting, especially the young and inexperienced, I think it is a great idea as it allows you to keep a record in case of (and more hopefully to prevent) incident, allows others to give advice or add confidence to your activities and also allows you to be happier about those activities. We all do this whether we think we do or not, every time we go shooting. Who doesn't consider where the bullet will land should it miss its target? Or,...consideration of ground conditions (stony ground is more likely to cause ricochets so for vermin control I always choose a 17HMR with ballistic tips if shooting over stony ground to reduce that risk) ; or the location of public footpaths. We all consider these things but if we don't, we really ought not to be shooting in the first place. If you need any further assistance or would like me to provide some sample forms, just get in touch. Edited July 7, 2015 by Savhmr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remimax Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 attack is the best form of defense when dealing with a severe case of mad cow ,should of called the old bill bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Seems to e a lot of assuming here on the poor lad. He has in fact done nothing wrong at all, seems to stayed calm and collected. Risk assessments! More chance of him having a car accident on the way home! Bonkers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 No-one was suggesting he'd done anything wrong...he hasn't. As for "bonkers" risk assessments, you unconsciously do them every time you shoot and squeeze that trigger...it's just you don't record it (at least I'd sincerely hope you consider the environment and possible risks). To say "bonkers" is missing the point. He's a young lad with limited shooting experience and it might be of benefit to him to get a little help with "stating the bleedin obvious!" as not all these things are obvious to people who are new to the sport. I'll bet you check for public footpaths, or at least know inside out what lies around your shooting boundaries; you know what ammo is safe to use over stony ground; you know what livestock might be spooked so will consider that if shooting close to them; you know the importance of knowing what dead ground lies between you and your target for both range estimation and in case some one or livestock may be in that dead ground. etc etc etc. These things may not be obvious at all to someone new to shooting so there's nothing bonkers about recognising risks and managing the things. We dont record them on forms because we dont have to but youngsters may find it useful for their first few outings on unfamiliar land especially. What is wrong with education on safety? Its not bonkers at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 No-one was suggesting he'd done anything wrong...he hasn't. As for "bonkers" risk assessments, you unconsciously do them every time you shoot and squeeze that trigger...it's just you don't record it (at least I'd sincerely hope you consider the environment and possible risks). To say "bonkers" is missing the point. He's a young lad with limited shooting experience and it might be of benefit to him to get a little help with "stating the bleedin obvious!" as not all these things are obvious to people who are new to the sport. I'll bet you check for public footpaths, or at least know inside out what lies around your shooting boundaries; you know what ammo is safe to use over stony ground; you know what livestock might be spooked so will consider that if shooting close to them; you know the importance of knowing what dead ground lies between you and your target for both range estimation and in case some one or livestock may be in that dead ground. etc etc etc. These things may not be obvious at all to someone new to shooting so there's nothing bonkers about recognising risks and managing the things. We dont record them on forms because we dont have to but youngsters may find it useful for their first few outings on unfamiliar land especially. What is wrong with education on safety? Its not bonkers at all. How do we know this chap has limited experience? I could of missed him telling us that. Thank you for telling me your opinion. My opinion is, bonkers! The lad had done nothing wrong. Starting to lecture him in an assuming manner (and other) is presuming against him when all along he was doing nothing wrong. End of. Underbonkersdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksman1997 Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) How do we know this chap has limited experience? I could of missed him telling us that. Thank you for telling me your opinion. My opinion is, bonkers! The lad had done nothing wrong. Starting to lecture him in an assuming manner (and other) is presuming against him when all along he was doing nothing wrong. End of. Underbonkersdog. Have been shooting from the age of 14 so would say i'm well experienced in terms of safety. Was taught very minimal by my dad but common sense tells you the danger of guns and you learn very quickly. I agree with Savhmr that we all make a risk assessment before making a shot even if it is a self conscious one. Only ever shot on my dads land so know the fields like the back of my hand. Know the shot i was taken was safe and nobody should have been on the land especially when shooting was in progress and they came in the middle just didn't know how to react to the woman as something like that has never happened before. Kinda puts me off using a 17hmr as there just too loud. Shot with air rifle and .22lr for the past 4 years without a single encounter and only the second time out with the 17hmr and that happens, Almost feel as if she came looking for trouble. Not many people would be doing a risk assessment for every piece of land they shoot on or any piece of land for that matter but since it's the only real suitable ground for larger centerfire rifles and since i seem to have a problem with one particular women i feel that it would be a good idea to be on the safe side. Don't worry UD i don't think anyone was being overly harsh towards me especially not Savhmr who was a great help and kindly made me out a risk assessment form as he kindly offered to do for me. Risk assessment might seem a bit overboard but better be safe than sorry. I could just tell by the sort of the women and i'm sure she will probably pop up again so i will keep you posted. Going for risk assessment, shooting in progress signs and hopefully patch up whatever part of the ditch she is getting over and record next meeting on mobile phone. Appreciate the help from all thanks!! Edited July 8, 2015 by Marksman1997 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinach Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Marksman, sorry looking back I misread your post. I could have sworn you were shooting into a dark backdrop that you knew to be safe. I'd mention it to your licencing officers? She was frightened and that crack always sounds like its right next to your ear. I wouldn't worry. John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Have been shooting from the age of 14 so would say i'm well experienced in terms of safety. Was taught very minimal by my dad but common sense tells you the danger of guns and you learn very quickly. I agree with Savhmr that we all make a risk assessment before making a shot even if it is a self conscious one. Only ever shot on my dads land so know the fields like the back of my hand. Know the shot i was taken was safe and nobody should have been on the land especially when shooting was in progress and they came in the middle just didn't know how to react to the woman as something like that has never happened before. Kinda puts me off using a 17hmr as there just too loud. Shot with air rifle and .22lr for the past 4 years without a single encounter and only the second time out with the 17hmr and that happens, Almost feel as if she came looking for trouble. Not many people would be doing a risk assessment for every piece of land they shoot on or any piece of land for that matter but since it's the only real suitable ground for larger centerfire rifles and since i seem to have a problem with one particular women i feel that it would be a good idea to be on the safe side. Don't worry UD i don't think anyone was being overly harsh towards me especially not Savhmr who was a great help and kindly made me out a risk assessment form as he kindly offered to do for me. Risk assessment might seem a bit overboard but better be safe than sorry. I could just tell by the sort of the women and i'm sure she will probably pop up again so i will keep you posted. Going for risk assessment, shooting in progress signs and hopefully patch up whatever part of the ditch she is getting over and record next meeting on mobile phone. Appreciate the help from all thanks!! Your attitude deserves credit and demonstrates clear responsibility and maturity. As you've said, we all assess risk mentally and it's got nowt to do with form filling as "UD" seems to think. He appears to have made assumptions and jumped to conclusions about the whole thing as he was unaware that all I did was provide what you requested in a PM, and I am glad that I was able to help you. Hopefully, the belts and braces approach will put you one step ahead of this woman should she feel the need to take things further, and provide you with all the tools you need do demonstrate to anyone trying to scrutinise your activities that you have taken all reasonable and practical steps to ensure the safety of those who might be affected by the shooting. Unless you're pretty close to built up areas, where noise nuisance might be an issue, personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. You seem to have all the permissions you need to shoot the calibres you do on your land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Don't be put off by noise, the lack of noise is the cause of the problem! Being to quiet before has taught that woman that shooting must not go on anymore! Make more noise so it becomes the norm! Sound moderators are not for the benefit of others! Take no notice of their attitude, carry on with your legit and diligent efforts. You fulfilled your responsibilities perfectly and you are not responsible for the error of another. You won't convince them, just walk away. I won't be sending you any forms lol, Gordon Bennett lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Its not about forms (for the umpteenth time perhaps a visit to specsavers is in order? ). It's about the thought processes. The suggestion is (for belts and braces) that the lad simply records what he's done IN CASE of a visit by plod due to a complaint as it demonstrates clearly he's thought about safety. Personally, I'd still be reporting the threat from the woman. There is no suggestion of people wandering fields with a clip board in one hand which is ridiculous. It never ceases to amaze me the negative attitudes of some to drumming and providing guidance to safety, especially when there has never been so many "antis" on our cases. And for your info Underdog, I was ASKED to provide that guidance, so does that make the lad "bonkers"? I think not. He's clearly identified himself as a responsible shooter. Perhaps offering more practical support instead of throwing personal insults about being bonkers about might be more welcomed. Edited July 9, 2015 by Savhmr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Your not bonkers you narna lol. When did you last visit spec savers? What is bonkers is being fearful of plod. No way would I be subject to that fear. I pay their wages! If they ever want to assume the worst against me they better have a good argument! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Just put a notice up saying the adders are really aggressive in this warm weather and its best to stay off the field. Never been known to fail. Report it to your FEO and keep your phone handy if she comes back record it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 What's the situation now? A bit late really but as has been said and IMO, you should have reported the threat immediately, by not doing so you allowed the power to remain with her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 What's the situation now? A bit late really but as has been said and IMO, you should have reported the threat immediately, by not doing so you allowed the power to remain with her? What power is that then sir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 The psychological power that she was in the right to be able to behave that way Sir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 That's not a power, that's is a sign of intellectual weakness, a bully. Ignorant plus arrogance and maybe fear but certainly no power, sir. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksman1997 Posted July 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 What's the situation now? A bit late really but as has been said and IMO, you should have reported the threat immediately, by not doing so you allowed the power to remain with her? Haven't been back since due to one of my shooting buddys being in hospital the last few days and the other away in spain. And i don't wan't to face the witch and her husband alone just incase i get shot at or they are trying to start trouble again. They seem like the violent type! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Haven't been back since due to one of my shooting buddys being in hospital the last few days and the other away in spain. And i don't wan't to face the witch and her husband alone just incase i get shot at or they are trying to start trouble again. They seem like the violent type! Does that mean you haven't reported the matter to the police then? If so then personally I think that's a mistake; if there's a reoccurrence and the police are subsequently involved, you will be asked why you didn't report the matter initially when they discover there is history between you. It gives the impression you believe you may have been in the wrong. I think that by not reporting it you have lost the initiative, or the upper hand if you like. Edited July 15, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 That's not a power, that's is a sign of intellectual weakness, a bully. Ignorant plus arrogance and maybe fear but certainly no power, sir. :-) Well Sir, power or not? she had the desired effect of intimidation. Being the simple creature I am tells me she had the upper hand in that situation? Anyway "end of" from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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