EU In or out

[Psyxologos]

 

The EU needs to continue trading with the UK.

 

Why is that? Also, why does the uk not need to trade with the rest of the EU?

[UKPoacher]

 

That is a valid point. I guess I would go with an interpretation that puts the interests of citizens, workers, people before big employers' drive for profit and the clever ways their lawyers bend the law to achieve it.

 

As a life long socialist I understand your fears. However without employers there are no jobs. There has to be a system where manufacturing and trade can flourish to keep people in work. The EU inspired worker's rights are echoes of the unions demands in the 1970's and 80's and ook how that ended up. There has to be a balance and employers need protection too. Otherwise the whole country would go mammaries up.

[UKPoacher]

 

Why is that? Also, why does the uk not need to trade with the rest of the EU?

 

OK - The EU has more to lose financially. The UK can source cars and wines elsewhere (our local Brit shop in rural France is full of American, Australian and Sth African wines). But the UK market for German and French cars and French and Italian wines is too great for them to lose.

[Nial]

 

Why is that? Also, why does the uk not need to trade with the rest of the EU?

 

One example, I understand that after the USA, the UK is Germany's biggest car export market.

[Psyxologos]

 

As a life long socialist I understand your fears. However without employers there are no jobs. There has to be a system where manufacturing and trade can flourish to keep people in work. The EU inspired worker's rights are echoes of the unions demands in the 1970's and 80's and ook how that ended up. There has to be a balance and employers need protection too. Otherwise the whole country would go mammaries up.

 

This is what I was hinting at. Thanks.

 

P.S: I am not a socialist,communist,leftie,conservative, nazi or whatever label people like putting on each other. I am just expressing an opinion based on my moral code and the way I understand the world to be.

[12gauge82]

 

Welcome to reality....

 

Check the working hours of a birtish and a Spanish person (as well as the rest of the EU).

I refuse to believe those stats, I know no one who works less than 40 hrs other than a couple of girls with young babies, and everywhere I've ever been in France the country is like a goust town in the evenings with nothing open. For every set of 'statistics' you find I bet other stats can be found to twist it to what ever agenda is wanted

[Danger-Mouse]

 

Why is that? Also, why does the uk not need to trade with the rest of the EU?

 

From the David Davis article posted earlier in the thread;

 

We currently import £59 billion more from Europe than we export. After Brexit we would be Europe’s largest export market, worth £289 billion in 2014, larger than China.

To see our importance to Europe, you only need to walk down the street. More than a quarter of all cars sold in this country are Mercedes, BMWs, Audis or VWs. And those are just some of the German brands. We are Europe’s second largest, and fastest growing car market.

 

We are too valuable a market for Europe to shut off. Within minutes of a vote for Brexit the CEO’s of Mercedes, BMW, VW and Audi will be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding that there be no barriers to German access to the British market.

And while they are at it they will be demanding that those British companies that they own will have uninterrupted access to Europe. We are talking Mini and Rolls Royce, owned by BMW, and Bentley, owned by Volkswagen. Premium brands with healthy demand across Europe.

And this is not just German cars. The same will happen with Shell and Unilever in the Netherlands, EDF, EADS and the viticultural trade associations in France, Seat in Spain, and Fiat and the fashion designers in Italy.

The pressure from European companies for a free trade deal between the UK and the remaining member of the European Union would be huge.

[Psyxologos]

 

OK - The EU has more to lose financially. The UK can source cars and wines elsewhere (our local Brit shop in rural France is full of American, Australian and Sth African wines). But the UK market for German and French cars and French and Italian wines is too great for them to lose.

 

 

 

One example, I understand that after the USA, the UK is Germany's biggest car export market.

 

Both of you have a valid point.

 

But is this not something that worries you as consumers? For example rubbish British cars, Leyland cars, and Rootes Group cars, protected from superior and cheaper continental European imports by import duties. Like things were in the past. When a British car lasted three years and then the sills rotted.

 

And the first six year anti-corrosion cars were continental European imports. Volkswagens in fact I think? We will go back to complacent domestic products protected by import duties.

 

The uk will be in a trade war it can't win.

 

For, if the uk wants to selll into the EU it will still have to produce goods to a 'CE Mark' standard. And outside Europe the Chinese and now Ethiopia (in textiles) will undercut the uk.

I refuse to believe those stats, I know no one who works less than 40 hrs other than a couple of girls with young babies, and everywhere I've ever been in France the country is like a goust town in the evenings with nothing open. For every set of 'statistics' you find I bet other stats can be found to twist it to what ever agenda is wanted

 

Closing your eyes and ears and singing loudly it does not mean that reality is not taking place. 'Refusing to accept these statistics' is not a valid argument. Of course it is your prerogative, but it makes for a very weak position.

[UKPoacher]

 

From the David Davis article posted earlier in the thread;

 

We currently import £59 billion more from Europe than we export. After Brexit we would be Europe’s largest export market, worth £289 billion in 2014, larger than China.

To see our importance to Europe, you only need to walk down the street. More than a quarter of all cars sold in this country are Mercedes, BMWs, Audis or VWs. And those are just some of the German brands. We are Europe’s second largest, and fastest growing car market.

 

We are too valuable a market for Europe to shut off. Within minutes of a vote for Brexit the CEO’s of Mercedes, BMW, VW and Audi will be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding that there be no barriers to German access to the British market.

And while they are at it they will be demanding that those British companies that they own will have uninterrupted access to Europe. We are talking Mini and Rolls Royce, owned by BMW, and Bentley, owned by Volkswagen. Premium brands with healthy demand across Europe.

And this is not just German cars. The same will happen with Shell and Unilever in the Netherlands, EDF, EADS and the viticultural trade associations in France, Seat in Spain, and Fiat and the fashion designers in Italy.

The pressure from European companies for a free trade deal between the UK and the remaining member of the European Union would be huge.

 

Plus the Spanish trawlers would lose access to 'their' fishing grounds off the UK coast. There are more French workers in the UK than retired British old fogies like me in France and many times more Eastern European workers who would cause financial embarrassment to their local governments should they have to leave.

 

Not forgetting the £10 billion the UK contribute to the EU pot every year.

 

Psyxologos; Haven't you heard? The Japanese now make awfully good motors. If you are a bit short of cash you could even get a car from Korea that would last longer than your old Morris. Germany hasn't got the monopoly on reliable cars. Just the monopoly on fashionable cars.

Edited February 25, 2016 by UKPoacher

[Danger-Mouse]

 

 

 

 

For, if the uk wants to selll into the EU it will still have to produce goods to a 'CE Mark' standard. And outside Europe the Chinese and now Ethiopia (in textiles) will undercut the uk.

 

 

 

They will do that whether we are a member of the EU or not.

[Psyxologos]

 

They will do that whether we are a member of the EU or not.

 

Possibly, but in come the EU laws that protect the common market from such eventualities. I read somewhere an article about the Chinese 'steel dumping' and how the EU is helping put a curb on it, after the uk and other European economies fell victim to the practice. Too late, you might say. Maybe so, but a lesson learned for other sectors, I hope.

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

The uk will be in a trade war it can't win.

 

 

 

Good grief.

 

Are you Nick Clegg?

[12gauge82]

 

 

 

Both of you have a valid point.

 

But is this not something that worries you as consumers? For example rubbish British cars, Leyland cars, and Rootes Group cars, protected from superior and cheaper continental European imports by import duties. Like things were in the past. When a British car lasted three years and then the sills rotted.

 

And the first six year anti-corrosion cars were continental European imports. Volkswagens in fact I think? We will go back to complacent domestic products protected by import duties.

 

The uk will be in a trade war it can't win.

 

For, if the uk wants to selll into the EU it will still have to produce goods to a 'CE Mark' standard. And outside Europe the Chinese and now Ethiopia (in textiles) will undercut the uk.

 

 

Closing your eyes and ears and singing loudly it does not mean that reality is not taking place. 'Refusing to accept these statistics' is not a valid argument. Of course it is your prerogative, but it makes for a very weak position.

Who said I was closing my eyes, I just did some very quick research and as I thought the stats you posted don't give the full picture, the UK has a culture of part time work probably due to alot of two parent family's both having to work to survive. of full time works the UK average is some of the highest in the eu. Its these kind of tricks the EU pro brigade will try (manipulated statistics and scare mongering) to pull the wool for there own ends. Besides it's all irrelevant I want to live in a democracy controlled by UK citizens not unelected EU MPs. Wars were fought for freedom from oppression I'm sure many of the hero's of ww2 are rolling in their graves. Edited February 25, 2016 by 12gauge82

[Psyxologos]

 

Good grief.

 

Are you Nick Clegg?

 

No. Why do you say that? Do you believe this is not the case? If so, where do you base this assumption?

 

P.S: Is he still around? I thought he disappeared after 'his monumental error of judgement to sell his soul to the devil' (I remember reading this quote in a newspaper and it was attributed to a senior Lib Democrat, I do not remember who).

[Psyxologos]

Who said I was closing my eyes, I just did some very quick research and as I thought the stats you posted don't give the full picture, the UK has a culture of part time work probably due to alot of two parent family's both having to work to survive. of full time works the UK average is some of the highest in the eu. Its these kind of tricks the EU pro brigade will try (manipulated statistics and scare mongering) to pull the wool for there own ends

 

Did you actually see where these statistics came from? Who published them and how they compile their data? I am willing to hear you though, please show me statistics, data or whatever tangible information you have from a reliable source (you must have, since you rejected the ones I posted as unreliable) and let us talk about it.

[12gauge82]

I'm on a smart phone and have no idea how to post links but a quick Google will bring up what I've said

[UKPoacher]

 

Did you actually see where these statistics came from? Who published them and how they compile their data? I am willing to hear you though, please show me statistics, data or whatever tangible information you have from a reliable source (you must have, since you rejected the ones I posted as unreliable) and let us talk about it.

As I pointed out earlier; those stats are a snap shot from the movie. Look at the whole picture. The retirement ages, how many in the samples are self employed and therefore have indeterminable hours of work, the zero hours contracts, junior doctors paid for 40 hours who do double that........................

 

Look at the whole picture. Not just the part you want to portray.

[grrclark]

Around the EU trade argument, we are all capitalist countries and live or die by capitalist market needs.

 

No matter what political or idealogical divide may exist between the UK and rEU the market will define what deals get done and under which terms.

 

The cumulative impact of a non trading UK will be harder felt in the rEU than it will in the UK and the EU is far too fragile, too cumbersome and too immobile to move quickly enough to adjust. We are a net consumer of the EU zone commercial output, i.e. We buy more than we sell.

 

We also have surplus capacity in our domestic workforce so we could make up some of the shortfall in external input internally.

 

The EU super powers will watch domestic sentiment very closely on this debate and understand that if they have to subsequently exit the EU in order to ensure domestic stability then attemtpting to isolate the UK is bad strategy.

[12gauge82]

As I pointed out earlier; those stats are a snap shot from the movie. Look at the whole picture. The retirement ages, how many in the samples are self employed and therefore have indeterminable hours of work, the zero hours contracts, junior doctors paid for 40 hours who do double that........................

 

Look at the whole picture. Not just the part you want to portray.

Spot on

[Danger-Mouse]

 

Possibly, but in come the EU laws that protect the common market from such eventualities.

 

A market it is highly likely we will still be part of.

 

Have a look at this article http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/what-britain-would-look-like-after-brexit/

[UKPoacher]

Around the EU trade argument, we are all capitalist countries and live or die by capitalist market needs.

 

No matter what political or idealogical divide may exist between the UK and rEU the market will define what deals get done and under which terms.

 

The cumulative impact of a non trading UK will be harder felt in the rEU than it will in the UK and the EU is far too fragile, too cumbersome and too immobile to move quickly enough to adjust. We are a net consumer of the EU zone commercial output, i.e. We buy more than we sell.

 

We also have surplus capacity in our domestic workforce so we could make up some of the shortfall in external input internally.

 

The EU super powers will watch domestic sentiment very closely on this debate and understand that if they have to subsequently exit the EU in order to ensure domestic stability then attemtpting to isolate the UK is bad strategy.

 

Exactly! So while we wring our hands at the thought of Vietnamese and Chinese sweat shop labour we still buy their products by necessity. And the EU will still want to sell to us even if we have blown them out. They may try and impose tariffs to try and regain some of our contributions. But at the end of the day if German and French jobs are put at risk because VW can't sell their cars in the UK those tariffs will disappear.

Edited February 25, 2016 by UKPoacher

[paulnix]

 

Did you actually see where these statistics came from? Who published them and how they compile their data? I am willing to hear you though, please show me statistics, data or whatever tangible information you have from a reliable source (you must have, since you rejected the ones I posted as unreliable) and let us talk about it.

By the looks OECD figures put part-time and full time employees together without any adjustment so countries with a larger percentage of part-time employees will tend to have fewer average hours to show for it. part-time employment is very rare in Greece. 22% of German workers work part-time against 8% in Greece so there you have it, you can see it's flawed from the start without digging any deeper.

 

This from OECD themselves : The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources.

Edited February 25, 2016 by paulnix

[12gauge82]

By the looks OECD figures put part-time and full time employees together without any adjustment so countries with a larger percentage of part-time employees will tend to have fewer average hours to show for it. part-time employment is very rare in Greece. 22% of German workers work part-time against 8% in Greece so there you have it, you can see it's flawed from the start without digging any deeper.

 

This from OECD themselves : The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources.

Exactly what I read and like I said earlier shows how the in brigade will try every dirty trick in the book to manipulate the public. OUT OUT OUT

[Psyxologos]

 

A market it is highly likely we will still be part of.

 

Have a look at this article http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/what-britain-would-look-like-after-brexit/

 

When I post articles I am always accused I use 'leftie' sources (whatever that means). Do you believe the 'article' you are referring to comes from an objective source? If so, I feel continuing this is futile. Best of luck and all the best.

[Psyxologos]

By the looks OECD figures put part-time and full time employees together without any adjustment so countries with a larger percentage of part-time employees will tend to have fewer average hours to show for it. part-time employment is very rare in Greece. 22% of German workers work part-time against 8% in Greece so there you have it, you can see it's flawed from the start without digging any deeper.

 

This from OECD themselves : The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources.

 

Since you brought up the Greek labour market, I would like to know where you draw the conclusion that part time employment is rare there. I can tell you that you could not be any further from the truth. Like the UK, France and Germany, zero hours contracts, part time work and similar arrangements are very common in Spain, Greece, Italy and Portugal. This is a terrible thing for the working population, as by being part time their employer can avoid paying them the holiday allowance they would otherwise get (proportional to their working hours) as well as other obligations towards their employees. Things are not as black and white as you might see them.