7.5 for pigeon.....

[Hamster]

Hamster, you said

 

When I first started shotgunning I read everything I could get my hands on, same with ferrets, pigeon, clays, you name it.

 

So have you actually read any of his books? If not keep an open mind and buy a copy on the cartridge.

Then send some cartridges to the proof house and apply the results to what in the book and exfrapalate the results to different distances for velocity you may be surprised just how close the the tables in the book work out to be even tables that old.

This is possible down to fact that the siience behind exterior ballistics of a ball has been studied since the days of the first cannon.

 

Yes some bits of the book may generalise like 3 or 4 pellets at a certain foot-pound but then we do the same now with modern science today do we not?

 

I used to order books through Canterbury library and often had to wait a few weeks for them to turn up so yes I have almost certainly read them back in the late 70's to early 80's, I certainly remember reading one enterprising lord with time on his hands tying dead birds to balloons and raising them to 40 yards so he could see how many pellets hit flesh blah blah, all very entertaining but widely off the lab conditions needed to make VALID cases out of the outcomes, the list of variables in his method and the tiny sample alone render them little more than page fillers.

 

Other books and articles I have read on shot sizes for clays for instance often refer to 8's as running out of puff at a little over 35 yards , again I can assure you that too is nonsense but the point is if it remains unchallenged it will be taken as gospel.

 

What I have tried to show is that unless one of these eminent authors can come up with proof and data that he did indeed follow a quantifiable line of science led tests one can reserve judgement, which I do.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Hamster

[Hamster]

At the risk of taking this thread even more off track I'd add that the species specific comment made earlier is very very important. Having shot hundreds of magpies with air guns I can say without a shadow of doubt that these birds simply do not conform to the sack of potatoes death role nearly as easily or regularly as say collard doves or even feral pigeon both of which are bigger and firmer of flesh as well as protected by more dense plumage.

 

Yet magpies seem to be able to take fatal body shots that would fold other species and sometimes fly away for a good distance. This reality further compounds any assumptions made across a wide range of common shot gun prey.

[wymberley]

 

 

The op mentioned 28 gram 7.5s pigeons. Now without argiuing euro american british shot sizes , and just looking at 6s at 270 eng to 291 to the oz and 7.5s at around 340 350 to 400 to the oz thats a lot more pellets in any language.

Up to most ranges you generaly shoot pidgeons at 7.5s in an oz will do just fine.

If your shooting them high over some high ground over some trees on a flightline for example you might need to look to a bigger shot size or even a bigger l,oad, but this is more the extreme case scenario than general pigeon shooting for most people or sittuations.

now with a 32 gram load i might be tempted to run 6s the increased payload bumps up the pellet count nicely in a 6 shot load, but this is not what the OP asked for, 28 gram and 7.5s is ideal and i use this shot size in this weight load .

 

7.5s are not down on ft lbs of energy accumulative on target even to 45 and some yards anyone who has a KPY programe run the numbers please? And add to the fact they got the energy the pattern plate has more than a decent chance of a more even pattern with less little pigeon size voids in it than a 28 gram load of 6s has. pewllets kill not patterns but patterns are the key to the pellets killing you have to have one with the other, the 28 gram 7.5s have the odds stacked firmly in favour of acchieving whats required for clean humane kills on pigeons in a 28 gram load at apropriate ranges that cant be questioned.

Used the Gamebore DTL cartridge MV, 45 = 0.8 and 50 = 0.7 ft/lbs.

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by wymberley

[TONY R]

 

 

 

The op mentioned 28 gram 7.5s pigeons. Now without argiuing euro american british shot sizes , and just looking at 6s at 270 eng to 291 to the oz and 7.5s at around 340 350 to 400 to the oz thats a lot more pellets in any language.

Up to most ranges you generaly shoot pidgeons at 7.5s in an oz will do just fine.

If your shooting them high over some high ground over some trees on a flightline for example you might need to look to a bigger shot size or even a bigger l,oad, but this is more the extreme case scenario than general pigeon shooting for most people or sittuations.

now with a 32 gram load i might be tempted to run 6s the increased payload bumps up the pellet count nicely in a 6 shot load, but this is not what the OP asked for, 28 gram and 7.5s is ideal and i use this shot size in this weight load .

 

7.5s are not down on ft lbs of energy accumulative on target even to 45 and some yards anyone who has a KPY programe run the numbers please? And add to the fact they got the energy the pattern plate has more than a decent chance of a more even pattern with less little pigeon size voids in it than a 28 gram load of 6s has. pewllets kill not patterns but patterns are the key to the pellets killing you have to have one with the other, the 28 gram 7.5s have the odds stacked firmly in favour of acchieving whats required for clean humane kills on pigeons in a 28 gram load at apropriate ranges that cant be questioned.

Used the Gamebore DTL cartridge MV, 45 = 0.8 and 50 = 0.7 ft/lbs.

 

Thats about 0.96 inch of penatration and 0.79 respectfully.

Yep dead pigeons or crows.

[wymberley]

 

 

 

 

The op mentioned 28 gram 7.5s pigeons. Now without argiuing euro american british shot sizes , and just looking at 6s at 270 eng to 291 to the oz and 7.5s at around 340 350 to 400 to the oz thats a lot more pellets in any language.

Up to most ranges you generaly shoot pidgeons at 7.5s in an oz will do just fine.

If your shooting them high over some high ground over some trees on a flightline for example you might need to look to a bigger shot size or even a bigger l,oad, but this is more the extreme case scenario than general pigeon shooting for most people or sittuations.

now with a 32 gram load i might be tempted to run 6s the increased payload bumps up the pellet count nicely in a 6 shot load, but this is not what the OP asked for, 28 gram and 7.5s is ideal and i use this shot size in this weight load .

 

7.5s are not down on ft lbs of energy accumulative on target even to 45 and some yards anyone who has a KPY programe run the numbers please? And add to the fact they got the energy the pattern plate has more than a decent chance of a more even pattern with less little pigeon size voids in it than a 28 gram load of 6s has. pewllets kill not patterns but patterns are the key to the pellets killing you have to have one with the other, the 28 gram 7.5s have the odds stacked firmly in favour of acchieving whats required for clean humane kills on pigeons in a 28 gram load at apropriate ranges that cant be questioned.

Used the Gamebore DTL cartridge MV, 45 = 0.8 and 50 = 0.7 ft/lbs.

 

Thats about 0.96 inch of penatration and 0.79 respectfully.

Yep dead pigeons or crows.

 

There was a couple of penetration tables pinned on this forum, but I think I must have had a senior moment and they've now disappeared.

 

They only went as small as 7s and rounding up your figures to 1.0 and 0.8, these gave penetration into soft target ballistic gelatin as 35 and 45 yards respectively.

 

Edit Wrong figure corrected.

Edited August 6, 2016 by wymberley

[rbrowning2]

Other than religion, Tony Blair and class this topic always gives rise to heated debate.

My own experience is limited as I have never used anything other than no. 6 shot. However I can see the obvious advantages of using no. 7.5, the number of pellets in the pattern being the obvious one.

And price, I am sure if the cartridge manufactures made a uk 6.5 shot cartridge in 28gm for the same price as their budget clay cartridges in 7.5 then a lot of pigeon shooters would buy them.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And price, I am sure if the cartridge manufactures made a uk 6.5 shot cartridge in 28gm for the same price as their budget clay cartridges in 7.5 then a lot of pigeon shooters would buy them.

 

And they know that but will never do it while they can charge a premium for the Pigeon Cartridges and the Game Cartridges above those!

[GingerCat]

Had 7 pigeon for 14 shots the other day and 2 were a bit rangey really. To my horror I was using 7.5 in 28g and not the 6 in 29g that I normally use.

I'll use 7.5 again as to be quite honest I didn't notice any difference at all.

Ideally I want some size 7 as pattern will fail before power.

[the crowman]

Had 7 pigeon for 14 shots the other day and 2 were a bit rangey really. To my horror I was using 7.5 in 28g and not the 6 in 29g that I normally use.

I'll use 7.5 again as to be quite honest I didn't notice any difference at all.

Ideally I want some size 7 as pattern will fail before power.

Not if you go full full choke 👍👍

Had 7 pigeon for 14 shots the other day and 2 were a bit rangey really. To my horror I was using 7.5 in 28g and not the 6 in 29g that I normally use.

I'll use 7.5 again as to be quite honest I didn't notice any difference at all.

Ideally I want some size 7 as pattern will fail before power.

Not if you go full full choke 👍👍

[Milo]

And price, I am sure if the cartridge manufactures made a uk 6.5 shot cartridge in 28gm for the same price as their budget clay cartridges in 7.5 then a lot of pigeon shooters would buy them.

 

I used a couple of thousand Just Cartridges CSP 28grm fibre in 6.5 on pigeons and other game. They were relatively well priced and perfectly adequate.

[chris1961]

All this debating the man only asked if anyone's using 7.5 on pigeons my answer is no but many do and swear by them

[ChrisPCarter]

It was kind of a leading question as the proper answer should have been a simple yes or no.

I don't really see the point of the question when it's obvious some do and some don't.

Saying you don't want a debate on the subject kind of defeats the point of asking it in the first place.

[ChrisPCarter]

yes, if birds are decoying well and out to about to 50 yards give or take Gamebore Dark Storm 28g 7.5s, they drop pigeons nicely

Why on earth would you want to use Dark Storm for pigeon when you can get 30g or 32g 6 shot for about £100 per thousand less? Even less than that for regular budget clay cartridges that are fine at pigeon ranges. I go out hoping for a decent bag and the possibility of getting through a slab in a day so I dread to think how costly it could be using Dark Storm at £70 to £80 a go?

I'll stick to 6 shot but have nothing against 7.5's, it's just there ain't that much price difference when you go for things like Eley Pigeon Select, Gamebore Velocity Pigeon, Hull Superfast Pigeon etc.

If I've nothing in the cupboard then I might use clay cartridges but I don't see its saving much so I'd rather use a cartridge designed for the job and I can also use them on most other game.

[dodeer]

Quite a few continental pigeon loads are 32/36/38g 7/7.5's.

 

I've found a good trap load to be a good pigeon load and have used for partridges too

Edited August 9, 2016 by dodeer