TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Oh well we will have do do some real shooting on the 27th then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Yes, but if I only have a plate of 44" square, you can see my issue? Edit: Furthermore, in lots of cases, a 40-yard pattern is useless. Remember that most of the stuff I test is .410 or at least, small gauge. Lots of cartridges in the small gauges won't throw a consistent 40-yard pattern. You end up with 40-yard sequences going something like 47, 117, 25, 160, 77 which don't really tell you how good the cartridge is - only how lucky or unlucky you've been. That same cartridge at 30 yards might do 110, 102, 94, 106, 100 and look perfectly consistent, but when the pellet velocity drops another 200fps, they all disappear, or not, at random. Take your point and had to laugh as that is exactly what size I'm currently using. I get away with it as I'm only patterning a nominal 7/8 barrel with fibre. Even so, it's quite easy to 'let one go'. What I'd really like to know is how the hell you can lose a 4ft square steel plate mounted on angle iron legs somewhere on the farm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 I would start patterning at 30 yards in this instance, its not necessarily the range you will end up shooting birds at but its close enough to be accurate in shot placement and thus you will have less need for a bigger plate to include any stray pellets, you can see easier the inner 10 which will indicate if the pattern is worth perusing further. Good 30 yard patterns tend to stay good downrange how much and for how far they stay good can depend but at least you have a starting point. Do not get too hung up on shot placement it is important in the field point of aim point of impact but for patterning as long as you have a visual on all pellets in the load on the pattern board you have it, sense the closer range to start with to get by with a smaller plate, once you get over 50 yards its essential to have an 8ft square board as flyers can be seen then. Dropping back for longer shots is the next phase and where things start to get real interesting, you will see once you get past 50 yards what works and what dose not work, here at these ranges you see the good after market choke types start to come into play. For what you are doing i would start 30 yards myself if i were you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 I thought about getting one of those aiming devices. Just to get on target consistent. I thought about 20 yards. But stuff like this need to be hashed out before anything hits paper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If it is decided to use a cheap single barrel Wabbitbosher Special it could be fixed to a workmate bench to keep the point of aim consistent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If it is decided to use a cheap single barrel Wabbitbosher Special it could be fixed to a workmate bench to keep the point of aim consistent! thats not goingto happen, we`d need a bench and clamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 You are over thinking the aiming aspect of patterning lads, as long as the entire pattern is on paper you are good, just centre your circle in the middle of the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) You are over thinking the aiming aspect of patterning lads, as long as the entire pattern is on paper you are good, just centre your circle in the middle of the pattern. Yup - the "1 in 15" I was talking about above are simply where vague aiming has left any of the central part of the pattern off the paper, such that I can't get the circle round the densest part. We don't need anything like red dot sights or clamps... Edited October 23, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If it is decided to use a cheap single barrel Wabbitbosher Special it could be fixed to a workmate bench to keep the point of aim consistent! thats not goingto happen, we`d need a bench and clamp. Why ever not, it may save time in the long run. You are over thinking the aiming aspect of patterning lads, as long as the entire pattern is on paper you are good, just centre your circle in the middle of the pattern. Really, as one of those who end up doing a lot of the shooting, anything that speeds up the work-rate is advantageous. Yup - the "1 in 15" I was talking about above are simply where vague aiming has left any of the central part of the pattern off the paper, such that I can't get the circle round the densest part. We don't need anything like red dot sights or clamps... Hence the need to be at 30 yds or possibly a bit less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 You don't need a aiming device when patterning.The way it has always been done shoot at the pattern plate steady the gun stick or suchlike. Then eyeball the pattern with a bit of practice you can easily find the centre.Then draw your circle.Bottom line no two guns will pattern the same.Dipper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 You don't need a aiming device when patterning.The way it has always been done shoot at the pattern plate steady the gun stick or suchlike. Then eyeball the pattern with a bit of practice you can easily find the centre.Then draw your circle.Bottom line no two guns will pattern the same.Dipper. Just leave them and the 37 biros in there breast pocket to it dipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If you anchor the gun, you get consistancy which is what is required for testing. Unless you mount the gun and absorb the recoil in exactly the same way each time you affect the pattern, albeit it is more noticeable when shooting slugs or a rifle and you can clearly see the difference as you are only looking at single holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If you anchor the gun, you get consistancy which is what is required for testing. Unless you mount the gun and absorb the recoil in exactly the same way each time you affect the pattern, albeit it is more noticeable when shooting slugs or a rifle and you can clearly see the difference as you are only looking at single holes. If all the pattern is on paper hows it matter.? you could shoot it blind from the hip if you had a big enough pattern plate once its on paper the jobs done just centre the pattern mark your circle and inner 10 if you want and evaluate how its performed. Saving time the clamping route it will take longer than reading Leo Tolstoy’s war and peace . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Just found a article on patterning in "Cartridge loading"" David Garrard.Dipper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 We're talking shotguns not Bench rest rifles.Dipper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Just found a article on patterning in "Cartridge loading"" David Garrard.Dipper. I knew David - his nom de plume was 'Homeloader'. He knew his stuff and was a lovely man, a true gent. The book was first published in 1978 I think. Whereas any procedure detailed will undoubtably remain valid, it might just be that later studies could well mean that any conclusions drawn are not as currently believed to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If all the pattern is on paper hows it matter.? you could shoot it blind from the hip if you had a big enough pattern plate once its on paper the jobs done just centre the pattern mark your circle and inner 10 if you want and evaluate how its performed. Saving time the clamping route it will take longer than reading Leo Tolstoy’s war and peace . Because as you absorb the recoil the muzzle moves differently each time causing an inconsistency in how the shot travels down range. By using a bench rest or similar, you remove a potential source discrepancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 You don't need a aiming device when patterning.The way it has always been done shoot at the pattern plate steady the gun stick or suchlike. Then eyeball the pattern with a bit of practice you can easily find the centre.Then draw your circle.Bottom line no two guns will pattern the same.Dipper. Silly me, I always thought that you just up and shot it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) On big factories all paterning is done at 35 mt with a 70mm barrel and modified choke I prefer to pattern at the distance i expect to shoot and if it's a new recipe i'm trying do the 30 & 35 mt comparison reason being on many books, the consensus is that 2 shells might pattern similarly at 30 mt; but one will pattern better than the other at 35 mt... and in some whay is true I also use https://www.testshot.net for my graphic inspection of each pattern i test; useful tools Edited October 23, 2017 by Continental Shooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If all the pattern is on paper hows it matter.? you could shoot it blind from the hip if you had a big enough pattern plate once its on paper the jobs done just centre the pattern mark your circle and inner 10 if you want and evaluate how its performed. Saving time the clamping route it will take longer than reading Leo Tolstoy’s war and peace . Quite. I did not get through 20 patterns an hour for 2½ hours last time I shot then in any number, by fixing anything to anything. It matters not where the shot goes - only that you catch the middle bit plus 15" in all directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 I also use https://www.testshot.net for my graphic inspection of each pattern i test; useful tools Yep - the chap who set that website up came to me asking for advice and tips about how to go about all of this 4 years ago. Danish or Norwegian, I think he was. Without meaning to sound trite, I told him precisely what wigeon jim said to us all earlier: that comparative patterning where the gun and choke are different between patterns doesn't tell you much about a cartridge. Even the two of the same cartridge, gun and choke don't always perform the same. I guess he went ahead and put it all online anyway. Looks like he nicked a few ideas from the old CartridgeReview website whilst he was at it. Ah well. On the other hand, my point to wigeon jim stands - if it's the same gun and choke, every time, then one can explore the behaviour of a changing cartridge. I think I might email wabbitbosher about something we can chuck fibre / steel down. I'm sure he'll have something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 i suppose its actual logic that setting up everything to detect change, or all change. no point setting up and only one cartrige making it on paper with all the shot in it, the latter shots being too wide. i just dont have enough experience patterning much. like i`ve said countless times its just subsonics, and that was a great eyeopener. that was with titewad / AS many moons ago. so have we come to a concensus as to the distance? Experiment 1, speed change Distance? Nominal choke 1/2# load 28gram ? shotsize #6 ? this would be for testing speeds from 900fps to 1400fps or so. Experiment 2 shotsize change Distance? Nominal choke 1/2# load 28gram ? shotsize #1-3-5-6-7-9 ? speed selected from above (loaded to some criteria like 1250 where patterns just open up?) Experiement 3 silly stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 My gut feeling is as this is going to be a fair old job, it might just pay to do it such as the results benefit the majority of applications. Exp. 1. As per, but as 40 yards is mid range or so for a #6, that has to be the optimal distance - as it has been with good reason for decades. Exp. 2. Again, pretty much as per with the 40 yards and the speed given. However, if we're talking lead, how many use #1 and #3 in quantity and if #9 is pretty much the domain of the skeet lads who already know which way is up, would deleting these and replacing them with, say, 6&1/2 and 7&1/2, be advantageous? Exp. 3. 28g of, say, #7 or 30g of #6 as fast as is safe - 1600+ at the muzzle - to see if the known disadvantages can be replicated and shown. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 six n alf? where in blighty are we going to find that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Second that Dipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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