Not guilty - but pay up!

[ehb102]

We can only go by the official statistics of such things. I refer anyone with an interest to the 2013 document of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).

https://www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/legal_guidance/perverting-course-of-justice-march-2013.pdf

In a 17 month charging period from January 2011 to March 2012 "there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape, and 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape."

To know more than one person who has been falsely accused of rape you have to be very unlucky. Or possibly they actually did rape someone, but in the face of a system and a world against them the victim never had any chance of success. 

Quote

 

"Most subjects in these studies freely acknowledge nonconsensual sex — but that does not mean they consider it real rape. Researchers encounter this contradiction again and again.

Asked “if they had penetrated against their consent,” said Dr. Koss, the subject will say yes. Asked if he did “something like rape,” the answer is almost always no."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html

 

Believe women all the time and you'll be right more often than not. Hard though, when misogyny is fed to you at every level of life. Joseph in the Old Testament anyone? 

[aris]

1 hour ago, ehb102 said:

We can only go by the official statistics of such things. I refer anyone with an interest to the 2013 document of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).

https://www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/legal_guidance/perverting-course-of-justice-march-2013.pdf

In a 17 month charging period from January 2011 to March 2012 "there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape, and 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape."

To know more than one person who has been falsely accused of rape you have to be very unlucky. Or possibly they actually did rape someone, but in the face of a system and a world against them the victim never had any chance of success. 

Believe women all the time and you'll be right more often than not. Hard though, when misogyny is fed to you at every level of life. Joseph in the Old Testament anyone? 

CPS are the wrong people to ask - how can they possibly police themselves?  What about all the false allegations - blatantly false - which the CPS refuse to prosecute?  How about this one:

https://gogetfunding.com/innocence/

It happens more than one thinks - and devastates the accused lives.  Some say it is 'a small price to pay.  To me this smacks of misandry.

If you have a few bob spare - please support Mark.  I think we deserve an answer as to who/how/why this ever ended up in court.

Allison Saunders has a lot to answer for. 

 

[ehb102]

The reputation of one man is more important than all the women who have been raped, including all the women who have been raped and not reported it. To even risk this happening is misandry. Right. Got it. 

[aris]

Except it isn't just one man is it.    The only reason he is not in prison is because he was able to prove his innocence.

There are undoubtedly many many innocent men in prison due to false allegations and I fail to see how anyone can justify this to "balance the books" for women who have been wronged.  Surely both sides deserve justice?

The police and CPS have acknowledged the withholding of evidence.  In the Mark Pearson case I linked to above - they actually misrepresented video evidence until they were caught out.   Yet they still decided to prosecute - despite there being no evidence at all.  Why?  Perhaps to "balance the books".   I do feel for those women who have been wronged - but I think this witch hunt is going to end up hurting women more than it helps them in the long run.

Undoubtedly the incidence of false allegations are small in comparison to actual rapes - but every single false allegation puts a nail in the coffin for the true victims.   Juries will slowly become more and more skeptical, particularly when they see false accusers are not punished, and still retain their right to anonymity while the falsely accused life is basically ruined with no resourse.  But for some - this is a price worth paying for to "balance the books:".

 

[aris]

Here is a US take on it - #MeToo is already having a bit of a backlash.  This is sad, because the initial premise of the movement was sound - but has now taken a life of its own and suffering the scourge of unintended consequences.

https://amp.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/10/15/after-a-year-of-metoo-american-opinion-has-shifted-against-victims

 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, aris said:

 

There are undoubtedly many many innocent men in prison due to false allegations 

Absolute nonsense, there are of course miscarriages of justice, but it would be far more accurate to say there are very very few wrongly convicted men in prison.

[scotslad]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolute nonsense, there are of course miscarriages of justice, but it would be far more accurate to say there are very very few wrongly convicted men in prison.

 

But to be fair with rape u don't need to be convicted or even charged to have ur whole life riuned, just linking ur name could be enough to cost u ur job friends etc.

 

Really not an easy situation. Esp with the historic stuff, and while not condoning sexual harrassment/assualt but some of these 'victims' are upset cos someone touched their bum/boob 20 yrs ago.

U should try be younger and wearing a kilt in a nightclub esp abroad, got more hands up there checking ur 'trueness',

 

[12gauge82]

28 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 

But to be fair with rape u don't need to be convicted or even charged to have ur whole life riuned, just linking ur name could be enough to cost u ur job friends etc.

 

Really not an easy situation. Esp with the historic stuff, and while not condoning sexual harrassment/assualt but some of these 'victims' are upset cos someone touched their bum/boob 20 yrs ago.

U should try be younger and wearing a kilt in a nightclub esp abroad, got more hands up there checking ur 'trueness',

 

Totally agree with mud sticks, I agree that needs looking at to, but it's a very different thing to making a statement that our prisons are stuffed with innocent men.

[Gordon R]

All prisoners are innocent, even the ones who have admitted their guilt. 

Why are people harsher on Green, who has been proclaimed guilty without a trial?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Gordon R

[aris]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolute nonsense, there are of course miscarriages of justice, but it would be far more accurate to say there are very very few wrongly convicted men in prison.

Semantics.

 

[12gauge82]

45 minutes ago, aris said:

Semantics.

 

Hardly, the picture of prison is probably well over 99% of those in jail are indeed guilty.

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

U should try be younger and wearing a kilt in a nightclub esp abroad, got more hands up there checking ur 'trueness',

 

It doesn’t count women doing it to men sorry. It’s just a bit of fun... 

unless you do it back. Then it’s a crime. 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, scotslad said:

Esp with the historic stuff, and while not condoning sexual harrassment/assualt but some of these 'victims' are upset cos someone touched their bum/boob 20 yrs ago.

There is another factors in play too with the historical stuff, namely that the goalposts have moved. Now, while that is very much a good thing, it seems unfair to prosecute or hound people who were guilty of behaviour or offences that at the time were either winked at or had a blind eye turned to them. 

[aris]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Hardly, the picture of prison is probably well over 99% of those in jail are indeed guilty.

They are 100% guilty if a court of law said so - ergo the two thirds acquitted for rape are indeed 100% innocent.

The cps themselves have conceded there have been grave miscarriages of justice

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jun/05/scores-of-uk-sexual-offence-cases-stopped-over-evidence-failings

 

[Retsdon]

16 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

It doesn’t count women doing it to men sorry. It’s just a bit of fun... 

You think so? Certainly not in America. https://jonathanturley.org/2010/06/15/nevada-woman-sentenced-to-life-imprisonment-for-kissing-13-year-old-boy-and-putting-his-hand-on-her-breast/

[12gauge82]

9 minutes ago, aris said:

They are 100% guilty if a court of law said so - ergo the two thirds acquitted for rape are indeed 100% innocent.

The cps themselves have conceded there have been grave miscarriages of justice

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jun/05/scores-of-uk-sexual-offence-cases-stopped-over-evidence-failings

 

Twist it any way you want, the vast vast majority of those in jail, committed the crime they were convicted of, the far bigger problem with rape is that very few who commit it actually get convicted, it is obviously also very concerning if anyone innocent gets convicted of a crime they didn't commit but thankfully it is a very very rare occurrence.

[aris]

 

45 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Twist it any way you want, the vast vast majority of those in jail, committed the crime they were convicted of, the far bigger problem with rape is that very few who commit it actually get convicted, it is obviously also very concerning if anyone innocent gets convicted of a crime they didn't commit but thankfully it is a very very rare occurrence.

This attitude is why we need anonymity in such cases for both the accused and accuser.  Because even if you are innocent, you are guilty.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, aris said:

 

This attitude is why we need anonymity in such cases for both the accused and accuser.  Because even if you are innocent, you are guilty.

Twisting words again, that's a totally separate issue and as I said above, I agree something needs to be done, as equally when innocent people are accused of crimes they haven't committed, particularly one like rape, it destroys their life, but that's a separate issue, I commented on innocent people in jail and it is a very rare occurrence, something which you don't seem to want to accept.

[aris]

It depends on how you define ’rare’.  It 1% rare enough?  We actually don’t know.  I would think that when it comes to rape cases the miscarriage of justice Stats will be much higher than other crimes as typically there is no physical evidence - but rather the decision comes down to how the jury perceives the accused and accuser. 

[12gauge82]

32 minutes ago, aris said:

It depends on how you define ’rare’.  It 1% rare enough?  We actually don’t know.  I would think that when it comes to rape cases the miscarriage of justice Stats will be much higher than other crimes as typically there is no physical evidence - but rather the decision comes down to how the jury perceives the accused and accuser. 

The principal of our criminal justice system is based on Blackstone's ratio, which although the exact ratio is taken with a pinch of salt states it is better that 10 guilty men walk free than an innocent punished, so the whole system is already swayed very heavily towards ensuring innocent men aren't sent to prison, of course it does happen on very rare occasions, which is obviously too often, but without just letting all criminals walk free, I don't believe there is a better system available.

[aris]

 

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The principal of our criminal justice system is based on Blackstone's ratio, which although the exact ratio is taken with a pinch of salt states it is better that 10 guilty men walk free than an innocent punished, so the whole system is already swayed very heavily towards ensuring innocent men aren't sent to prison, of course it does happen on very rare occasions, which is obviously too often, but without just letting all criminals walk free, I don't believe there is a better system available.

The principle of our justice system is innocent until proven guilty. Except in the court of the tabloid press of course.  

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, aris said:

 

The principle of our justice system is innocent until proven guilty. Except in the court of the tabloid press of course.  

Yes well done you can spell, I didn't realise this was a spelling test and yes I should have been more specific about refering to the specific principle within our criminal justice system I was referring, but then I thought it would be obvious considering the subject we're talking about, the fact remains I've raised valid points.

Edited October 27, 2018 by 12gauge82

[Gordon R]

12gauge82 - you have indeed.