TSS shot data

[motty]

What is the reasoning behind not using steel shot?

[bishop]

Cylinder  barrels .1 1/4 oz  max payload. Using Black powder as i expect to be very soon i dont know if  steel shot. in a size suitable for humane goose killing at 40 yards would perform too well at 1200fps max ,giving tight enough patterns----but in saying that Motty im going to pattern test a couple of 1 1/4 oz steel loads tomorrow in #1 and #2 to see what  can and cannot be achieved.50 yards with the tss is outstanding--but in reality i wanted 10 yards more than the usual 30 yards advised killing range of these percussions.So i would be over the moon with tight hard hitting 40 yard steel loads.Being mindful of course that if #7 tss is slightly patchy at 50 yards i have no idea what to expect with #1 steel  at 40 yards given the wads may well be the issue here with both TSS and any other hard metal shot i test.The wad to use here is the key.Steel or TSS  will be an economic concern mostly.Its a 13 bore almost and finding a suitable plastic wad to slide into the muzzles without struggling may be  something that takes time.These wads here look ok,but are very very thick bio wads ,so thick you can hardly fold a petal back even when they are slit to the base.They might as i say be the issue ,not opening evenly,if at all.

50 yards  one ounce of TSS 15.0g/cc  #7.i did use pattern paper but tried tis on the way back to the car  as it resembled a goose sized target .I was off with the shot--think the gun shoots low .Might be better with 11/4 oz of tss.But more costly if so.The patch nature of the pattern concerns me.This shot is meant to hold tight up to 60 yards.Its being distorted by something and its not too much powder.60 grains of 777  is   what you would use to replicate the velocity of black powder.You can if you choose use the same volume as black-its tells you this on the bottle,but of course nobody does as there is simply no need .The velocity is there.

.................Boi wads here are very rigid.Need cut back for the 1oz payload .I found one wad with a petal folded back 180 dergees .Its very difficult to fold  these wads petals down compared to plastic.

Edited September 9, 2019 by bishop
added info

[bruno22rf]

Am I having a blond moment - 60 grains for 1 1/4 ounce sounds a little light - you say the gun is shooting low, are you sure that it's not the velocity causing the pellets to drop? Have you tried 70 grains? BP Guns are very tolerant on powder loads. Have you thought about maybe using 18mm diameter plastic tubing to use as a cup - just a thought?

[bishop]

This is still 777 powder  im using at present chris .The advised  way to load   is to drop back 15% from the black powder charge you are attempting to replicate.Normally a square load would be 70-75 grains  of black. approx.Its time consuming,expensive but vital  research to be done prior  to using the gun when the geese are here in force.The #7 pellets go right through the 15mm osb board at 50 yard!!! No lack of power.Its only an OUNCE  load m8 not 1 1/4.Remember also this shot was ranged using a ranefinder at 51 yards .Thats a bloody good range for a cylinder percussion gun--and i shall improve on it !!

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by bishop

[figgy]

Try the fiber shot cups, they don't need to open fully just enough to slow and let the shot go.

[bishop]

thats what these are figgy m8.really tough wee suckers  petals dont open evenly at all when fired.perhaps somehow they are making the shot pattern poorly over what   could be achieved I was pondering if they are the issue given one recovered wad showed one petal folded right back but the other 3 still sat upright unmoved by the wads expulsion from the barell.

Edited September 9, 2019 by bishop

[Continental Shooter]

Not an expert on TSS by any stretch of the imagination, but the cardboard will sit back under the pellets pressure when you fire and should not affect the pattern.

Try with 0.5- 1gr less powder and see if it gets more even, or to your likings

[bishop]

Thats another strong possibility continental..a drop in powder .Very powerful wallop these shots have--and thats with careful accurate by volume 60 grain charges of 777.Perhaps 55 grains would bring it tighter in.A 5 grain drop certainly would do little to limit the incredible stopping power.

[Guest cookoff013]

petals will fold back after firing, its nearly what every wad does. 

petals will fold back after firing, its nearly what every wad does. 

 

[figgy]

One petal folding back will throw your pattern off as it tumbles and throws it out and any angle.  Try easing the petals open a little before using them. Take a sharp craft knife and score along the lines so they are more likely to open.

Can you not use a plaswad or are they too loose.in the bore.

Edited September 10, 2019 by figgy

[bishop]

On 10/09/2019 at 08:48, cookoff013 said:

petals will fold back after firing, its nearly what every wad does. 

petals will fold back after firing, its nearly what every wad does. 

 

cookof013. i reloaded my first rounds more than 40 years ago.Im aware that petals fold back ! But thanks for your constructive and  positive input once again.

On 10/09/2019 at 08:57, figgy said:

One petal folding back will throw your pattern off as it tumbles and throws it out and any angle.  Try easing the petals open a little before using them. Take a sharp craft knife and score along the lines so they are more likely to open.

Can you not use a plaswad or are they too loose.in the bore.

I thought the same myself Figgy.Tough little ******* these wads are as i said.I cut them to the base and the petals  are still physically difficult to fold.My opinion is ,sounding parrot like,its the wad tubmling.One petal(please read cookoff) one petal folding back and no others is a clear sign that all is not well in the wad department.ill try folding them back prior to putting the wee 20g filler wad in and the cut to size mylar wrap(this fits lovely btw)

[bishop]

1 hour ago, figgy said:

One petal folding back will throw your pattern off as it tumbles and throws it out and any angle.  Try easing the petals open a little before using them. Take a sharp craft knife and score along the lines so they are more likely to open.

Can you not use a plaswad or are they too loose.in the bore.

Its 13g .wad choice is limited unless im able to sand the wads base first--i may well try this as i think the fibre jobs are questionable.A standard plaswad --with the base removed so just the cup remains has been tried by others with success.An over powder wad being  vital to stop the black powder from melting the wad and causing residue /bore issues.Its why i opted for fibre.less hassles there but i may have to rethink and choose a multi metal  wad   maybe or just fold each petal on these fibre wads right over before loading into the muzzle so i know they will open evenly on ignition with no risk of them staying tight closed on 3 sides(as they did).They were cut almost to the base already btw.One final thought--given im cutting these wads short to accommodate the reduced payload,the petals are 50% shorter.Now that being so thats 50% less surface area to allow the air  pressure to fold em back during expulsion .And on top of that, they are seriously thick it may be the case that there is simply not enough surface area on the petals combined with their very thick composition to fold all 4 down.In otherwords-ill fold em back 180 degrees myself prior to loading so i know that problems resolved

Edited September 10, 2019 by bishop

[figgy]

You could use a nitro card below a plaswad after you sand the base away to fit. Though by putting a 20 bore wad  inside a 12 a bit of burn shouldn't matter.

I wouldn't bother with mylar wrap.if using two wads for TSS. I'd only use it for steel with a fiber cup.or loose plaswad.

Another thing you could try when slitting the fiber cups.  As you cut the two lines down the petals taper in as you near the base a quarter of the width either side so the thickness attached at the base of each petal is half of the petal width. I tried it on some of my plaswad reloads after some didn't open as well as they should.  They worked very well.opening up as soon as they left the barrel.

Edited September 10, 2019 by figgy

[bishop]

aye that what most do when using plastic.They cut the cup away from the multi metal  styled wad,use the cup and sit it down on top of an over powder wad.i keep thinking it over here--i only recovered one wd but given the state of it its bloody obvious the wad is tumbling like **** and the shot is being affected--even a slight amount of contortion would cause issues at  a target distance of 50 yards !

[Stonepark]

Try cutting each wad petal into two vertically to give 8 petals.

This will weaken the base of the petal and may allow folding.

 

[bishop]

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_468/pre_0/accessories-shooting-accessories-biodegradable-wad-cup-for-muzzle-loading-12-gauge-shotgun.html

 

these may be an option.

[bruno22rf]

Clay and Game do a variety of fibre cup wads - around £15/100 in different lengths?

[Guest cookoff013]

can i ask you a silly question?

how are you loading these? take us through your total loading procedure.... please. 

with these fsc wads there is a hole in the bottom. maybe that is causing some issues. 

i`m not trying to re-invent the wheel. but i`m very familiar with loading cartridges and internal firing cycles, 

are you using a wad? over powder card? over shot card?

[Continental Shooter]

4 hours ago, bishop said:

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_468/pre_0/accessories-shooting-accessories-biodegradable-wad-cup-for-muzzle-loading-12-gauge-shotgun.html

 

these may be an option.

These look well engineered, I would try them.

 You can use the fibre base and add a plastic shot cup from plaswads? 

I would also try not to slit the fibre was and recover all shot cup to see how they performed and the status they're at

 

[bishop]

60 grains of 777. 1/8 over powder wad./fibre cup  wad,shortened /.mylar wrap cut to size,fitted into wad/.shot/ .overshot card wad.Im out tomorrow to do some more pattern testing this time with LBC Steel plastic wads cut shorter AND SANDED ROUND THE SIDES SO THEY FIT THE BORE with an ounce of TSS 15wt .The petals far more flexible on them.ill also try r these wads full length and slit half way and also slit 3/4 and slit right down with steel#2 at 40 yards and see how i fare.Ill use an over powder 1/8 wad on the charge of powder so as to avoid any risk of the wad melting onto the bore.(its 777 powder im using just now so that should not happen)Not too keen on the steel given the black powder (when i use i) will only push at 1200fps max .No idea what killing rage a  36g dose of BBB or #1 would have in steel using black powder.Again,if i managed 40 yards with pattern and penetration that would be fine by me.The TSS i expect far more from.50 yards should be workable with almost all the load in the 30" circle.

Edited September 10, 2019 by bishop

[Guest cookoff013]

ok, thanks,

are the 1/8oz muzzle loading powder cards the right size for the bore ? are they 13gauge?

i`m just thinking out loud...

has anyone before loaded up powder / powdercard / wadding (say 1/4" fibre) / card cup / tss?

i`m just wondering if the fiber shotcup is not causing problems by being ill fitting.... i`m not sure the diameter .  i`m thinking the fibre wadding might improve burn / uniform propulsion by fire forming?, i cant say but if the cup is ill fitting and you put a ton of power to it. 

[figgy]

Bishop I would get it all dialed in with steel shot first. It cheap and you can iron out all problems before dropping your expensive TSS in your wads for testing.

Even at 1200fps BBB steel shot or BB will flatten a goose at 40 yards.  Plenty of American fowlers are loading big shot at slower speeds, better patterns and easy to shoot instead of chasing speeds.

[bishop]

17 minutes ago, figgy said:

Bishop I would get it all dialed in with steel shot first. It cheap and you can iron out all problems before dropping your expensive TSS in your wads for testing.

Even at 1200fps BBB steel shot or BB will flatten a goose at 40 yards.  Plenty of American fowlers are loading big shot at slower speeds, better patterns and easy to shoot instead of chasing speeds.

Figgy its the lack of speed that turns me off steel for geese  at range but also lack of pattern when you compensate by using the big stuff.Every place i look on the web guys are getting 25 yards or so with steel.Not promising really.You would need a pedersoli 10 bore percussion  with 11/2 oz minimum to use the BBB and have the pattern density i reckon---but i will experiment tomorrow a bit.I have plenty BBB .2 shot and #1's in steel to play with.remember this is cylinder barrels here-zero choke.

Edited September 10, 2019 by bishop

[figgy]

Flight control wads could be the answer to keep a tighter pattern with steel.  Trouble is if you don't have confidence in your cart or load your beat straight away. 

[Continental Shooter]

I'm with Figgy on this one

I think the 1500 fps miyth is fading now.  1350 is more than enough.

I also agree that plastic wad would help.

couple of questions, does the wad not fit at all or fit too snuggly? perhaps sanding it down will make gases escape through the side and the turbolence increase the spread causing the pellet to go astray?

A plastic gas seal migth be the answer.