Mungler Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Okay so I am making my first FAC application and I had planned to just go for an all purpose .22 rimfire (vermin particularly bunnies and close range foxes). Interestingly I read all of the earlier ".22rf for fox" debates and wasn't sure what the score was - if a .22 rf for fox was a no no then what about .177 hmr? Anyhows, I phoned my FAO and put the question to him - he said the latest Home Office guidelines was "no" to any rimfire for foxes. So, the nub of the conversation was that if I want foxes then I need to ask for centre fire and his recommendation was .223 (which if I was forced this route would be my choice). What bothers me is that I am now on a first application going to be asking for: Section 1 12g shotgun .22rf + mod .223 centrefire + mod I am intrigued as to the outcome because I would have prefered not to go for centre fire as it really does give it to them to say no on a first application. Any thoughts and guidance greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 i applied for 22 and 222 first time,and they declined the centre fire,said to get some experience with rimmie first,waited 6 months reapplied and got it with a mentor for a further 6 months. different forces different rules mind.bridgend force i applied too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzyboi Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I was given the thumbs up for foxes with a .17hmr. I think its abit hit and miss, depends on your local force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Its probably my own fault. I should have pulled my finger out and made the application months ago in which case I would have been through any probationary / mentor period by now. But, what this means is that fresh to apply FAC-ers can't shoot foxes with rifles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGalway Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Can't advise you on the legal side of things Mung. But comparing shooting a fox with a rimfire and centrefire. Once you nail him with a .223 the rimmy will stay in the cabinet. Good luck with your application, I sincerely hope you get what you go looking for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzyboi Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Most forces are now employing the "Mentor" route In otherwords a probationary period down a range, or out in the field with a mentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferretboy111 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Got my 17.hmr for close range foxes aswell as rabbits, i reapplied 6 months later and have a .223 aswell. Me being a gamekeeper sped that all along a bit. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Got my 17.hmr for close range foxes aswell as rabbits, i reapplied 6 months later and have a .223 aswell. Me being a gamekeeper sped that all along a bit. Alex Just out of interest, which do you prefer and which gets the most practical use? For example, I could see how people would "prefer" using a .223 as a much better tool for many diferent jobs, but I would have thought that day to day a fully silenced .22 semi auto would be the one that would get the most use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taffygun Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Yup I got the HMR for foxes too, also now have the .222 but I have been told by my firearms officer that they are no longer adding the term 'fox' to your ticket as they now generalise it under the term 'vermin' There is a postman here in Tredegar that was granted a .22 Hornet on his very first application, so maybe that would be an avenue of possibility if they are pointing in the direction of CF for the fox.....or maybe the .17REM, .22 Swift even Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taffygun Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Got my 17.hmr for close range foxes aswell as rabbits, i reapplied 6 months later and have a .223 aswell. Me being a gamekeeper sped that all along a bit. Alex Just out of interest, which do you prefer and which gets the most practical use? For example, I could see how people would "prefer" using a .223 as a much better tool for many diferent jobs, but I would have thought that day to day a fully silenced .22 semi auto would be the one that would get the most use. My 22LR gets most of the use as I primarily shoot for bunnies, the .17HMR gets used when I think there's a good chance of the opportunity fox on a particular farm. I am yet to use the .222 in the field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Mung, just put everything down you <may> want, you don't have to go out and buy them. If the slots are still unused in 5 years time you will loose them then. IMHO you would be better off going for a bolt action .22, not a semi auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Mung, just put everything down you <may> want, you don't have to go out and buy them.If the slots are still unused in 5 years time you will loose them then. IMHO you would be better off going for a bolt action .22, not a semi auto. If I stick it down and they say no, do I have to declare that as a rejection / denial on future applications. I have to say I wasted a whole day filling the poxy forms out and researching the various calibres etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerguy.22 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I own both a 22rf and a 223. Lately i have been using the 223 the most as harvest is up and im after the foxes but i probably dont shoot anymore than 150 or so rounds through it a year and nearly all of them are zeroing it in and checking it before outings!! Probably 80% or so! With a 22rf i will shoot maybe 1500+ rounds a year or so and alot of these are on the rabbits! Have never shot a fox with my 22rf. So out of practical use i would say they are on a par as both do seperate jobs for me but i use the 22rf more than 223 throught the year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 mung go for the 22 r/f , 17 hmr , 223 cf ,243 cf then they might knock you back on the 243 if your lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 If I stick it down and they say no, do I have to declare that as a rejection / denial on future applications.No I have to say I wasted a whole day filling the poxy forms out and researching the various calibres etc. Time spent sorting out new toys is never wasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 the rule is this, there isnt a hard and fast rule, if you can show a need for a .22lr cleared for fox then they should give it to you. If you can detail some permission where the shooting is safe (good backstop) but in close proximity to housing, then the .22lr is the perfect tool. There are thousands of shooters with .22lr for fox, as there are people with 6.5 and over cleared for vermin and fox (another point they like being funny about) I would get: .22rimfire (means you could get a .22mag if you wanted) Bolt action and Mod, for Vermin and fox (fox shooting in area's even a silenced .223 would not be suitable) .223 and Mod for Fox and Vermin control. Just dont take too much nonsense from them, dont let them pressure you into thinking you need a DSC to hold a centerfire, etc.. etc... If they suggest anything your not happy with dont accept it, get in contact with the BASC and explain what you would like and what you have been offered, let them get in contact for you. Its alot easier to get things sorted first time instead of having to go back and change them and pay for the pleasure. The Mentoring thing i would suggest might be a problem on the .223 as tbh its probably not a bad idea, however the .22lr should be given on a Cleared permission only ticket first time. Give it 1 year then loose the mentoring condition, Give it 2 years and apply for an open ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Cheers for the replies chaps. What is the easiest centrefire to get cleared? Is it the .22 hornet or the .223? I have filled out the forms and asked for a .223 but I do like Magman's idea of sticking a couple on working to the assumption that the biggest calibre I ask for they will say no to. So, what is the easiest centrefire to get cleared? Cheers all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 All depends on your FEO, but .223 is vaery widley used/known calibre, Hornet isn't so much - so he may be wary of something he is less familiar with? I would go .223 anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 It really is a pain that the rules are not set across the board! On my visit my FEO said I could have rimfire and small centrefire (.223 etc) on the first application without mentoring. They only worry about Deer calibres here by the sound of things. I'd ask for a .223 if I was in your position, but here they allow HMR for Fox so I didn't bother. I'm going to try for a new plan with a variation when my cert arrives, I want a 6.5mm for Fox and Deer. I'm going to ask for a mentor with the application rather than let them spec it, supply them with 5 permissions (for an open ticket) and ask if I can get both the HMR and 6.5mm open for use with my mentor. He has open, so I need it to shoot his permissions with him. It all seems a bit much for a bloke who doesn't have his ticket yet, but I've done a lot of shooting in the 7 months it's taken (so far) for it to come! Good luck with your application, I found that if you really read up on what you want as well as others so you can talk a good game it helps a lot. When I asked for HMR I had basic ballistic knowledge of .22 rim, HMR, .22 Hornet, .223 and .243. I shoved a load of figures in his face for all of them and then asked if I could have HMR for Fox. I showed him prints from the Varmint Al site on ballistics and penetration and said that I wasn't planning on going out for Fox, but would shoot one if it turned up. Be sure to mention the understanding of backstops, and the power potential of the guns you want (as well as bigger ones). If you talk so much info they can see you know your stuff, they seem to like it. I'm lucky to have a couple of good mentors behind me to back me up if need be and a good rifle club. So far my FEO has been quite happy with my requests without them though. I hope you get what you ask for, and that your ticket is with you a little faster than mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 - Very good advice, the more info you can give them, the more likley they are to belive you actually know what your on about. When the FAO came round to me about my 243 i told him about the balistics of the round and said he could put down that i only used 55grn bullets for foxes - ticket came back with no restrictions and no need for a mentor. i now use the rifle for foxes and deer ( not just -shoot a fox whilst out stalking - as some people get) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 one point is they won't turn the application down because you've applied for a certain gun during the interview if there is a problem the FEO will suggest changing the application and if you're ok with it will just remove a gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 i would have to disagree, i applied for alot of calibres on my initial application, and was refused on all but 1 on them, the .22lr however 9 months later they passed me for my .223 and 3 months after that my open ticket. The FEO was an ****, which i think had alot to do with it. To be honest dont bother with the Hornet, its a nice round, i like it alot, but you would only be disapointed over time and end up getting a .223 and loseing alot of money in the process. If they will give you a .22hornet they cant truthfully say the .223 is any more dangerous in the general scheme of things. Go for a .223 or .222 you wont be disapointed then. The hornet is expensive to run, not as inherantly accurate as the .222 or .223, has limited rifles its chambered in and is generally a gun people who already have a .224 centerfire will buy. its a toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Mung, who's your FEO for Brentwood? Essex Police seem very reasonable in my experience so far. I'd had an FAC for .22 LR for some time, and I discussed what calibre the FEO would be happy with for fox. He preferred a .22 Hornet, but allowed a .222 Rem with a mod, as it's a quiet, punchy little round, and it's now on my FAC for fox and vermin. He said the Essex Police party line was that rimfires were not acceptable for foxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 NJC110381, Just to throw a spanner into your works Gloucestershire don't like going down the mentor route. They prefer you to have or get experience then apply for the gun. So they would like you to go out for a few months with your mentor and use his gun. If you can then evidence this then you won't need mentoring with your own gun. Thats what I was told anyway. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moses Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 I myself was a first time FAC applicant a few months ago. I had no experience of centrefire rifle shooting until March this year. I had always wanted to go deer stalking and decided to book it. I went to Suffolk for 3 days stalking, I did further 3, 3 day trips and then my DSC1, which I passed. I had my FEO visit on 21st of June, I had applied for a 6.5x55 for deer and fox, 270 for deer and a 22lr for vermin, all with mods. When I was asked about my expierience I told them about my stalking trips and my DSC. As soon as he knew I had my DSC there was no further questions about the rifles, he told me that it makes their job easier if you have DSC as it prooves safe handling of firearms. I got everything I applied for. I paid £150 to do a one day DSC course, and I believe it was worth it as it got me my FAC. Moses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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