Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 When did you ever see Wild Duck shot with non toxic shot on a supermarket shelf? How do you police for the next 5 years that the game being supplied to the games dealers is lead free? Unless everything shot with non toxic dies with a smile on its face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: When did you ever see Wild Duck shot with non toxic shot on a supermarket shelf? How do you police for the next 5 years that the game being supplied to the games dealers is lead free? Wild duck as encountered in typical coastal wildfowling, tend to be harvested and distributed by individuals rather than in more significant numbers taken by larger organised shoots. And most wildfowlers will only take what they need and use that bag themselves , and perhaps donate just the odd bird to friends or neighbours. Wildfowlers would never unite and harvest ducks in the way shoots do, their quarry is indeed "WILD FOWL" it would be both logistically difficult and they would not do it anyway. Out as much as you can take what you need enjoy watching the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, lancer425 said: Wild duck as encountered in typical coastal wildfowling, tend to be harvested and distributed by individuals rather than in more significant numbers taken by larger organised shoots. And most wildfowlers will only take what they need and use that bag themselves , and perhaps donate just the odd bird to friends or neighbours. Wildfowlers would never unite and harvest ducks in the way shoots do, their quarry is indeed "WILD FOWL" it would be both logistically difficult and they would not do it anyway. Out as much as you can take what you need enjoy watching the rest. Lancer all ducks and geese have had to be shot with non toxic in England since 1999. There are some huge driven duck shoots throughout England shooting large bags 3 or 4 times a week. These are all advertised as non toxic cartridges must be used. So my point is where are all these non toxic marketed ducks on supermarket shelves? Edited March 5, 2020 by Perazzishot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Lancer all ducks and geese have had to be shot with non toxic in England since 1999. There are some huge driven duck shoots throughout England shooting large bags 3 or 4 times a week. These are all advertised as non toxic cartridges must be used. So my point is where are all these non toxic marketed ducks on supermarket shelves? They never made it that far, they found lead in them and again the next season and gave up. Dealer will not buy ducks with lead in them, once that they knew Shooters were breaking the law they lost all trust. With non tox they will start to appear, as they should have been doing before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, lancer425 said: They never made it that far, they found lead in them and again the next season and gave up. Dealer will not buy ducks with lead in them, once that they knew Shooters were breaking the law they lost all trust. With non tox they will start to appear, as they should have been doing before. This is a 5 year volountry withdrawal, so how is this going to help the sale of game in the next 5 years? How can a game dealer tell the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Perazzishot said: This is a 5 year volountry withdrawal, so how is this going to help the sale of game in the next 5 years? How can a game dealer tell the difference? As soon as we comply with the details of the Voluntary ban, IE Non Lead in all live quarry, we will start to see results. But To meet the Non plaswad aspect, it is looking less likeley we can meet that realisticaly this season, but the emergence of the jocker card cup card cup sealed sealed steel loads, could be the first of many such rounds that could become available fairly soon. what are we a week and a half in so far. Early days. More seem interested in obeying self imposed land owners fibe only rules than the steel wad in the game aspect at this stage. I feel there as to be some compromise somewhere. And i think ignoring the plaswad aspect and at least fullfiling the non lead in meat aspect is more important short term, and is what i will be doing certainly untill i can get my hands on some of comercial fibre steel "the jockers perhaps" or have worked out / located wadding and developed my own reloads. At this very moment in time OFF season, i only need worry about pigeons crows rabbits and fox, i will just use rifles on fox and rabbits, "BUT I DO FOX AND RABBIT WITH SHOTGUN" . I will load home dropped bismuth within the month "known develpoped loads" and i will hand mould bismuth in a AAA mould i have for my sighted Fox shooting shotgun i use day calling quite often. Pigeons and crows i will Use Steel in plaswads untill i get other loads with fibre, and i will use up lead i have in hand right now on crows , to clear the decks. But will be Ultimately be looking at steel non plaswad indi cast steel reloads. in the fullness of time. I am looking at Reloading/ load development NON PLASWAD ammo for the coming season from now on, But will use bismuth and copper more this year as i have already developed loads with fibre wads, i will just swap the plas gas seals for inverted cup seals and pressure test, but basicaly i am more of less good to go anyway. WE need more wad options, sooner the better. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 29 minutes ago, lancer425 said: As soon as we comply with the details of the Voluntary ban, IE Non Lead in all live quarry, we will start to see results. But To meet the Non plaswad aspect, it is looking less likeley we can meet that realisticaly this season, but the emergence of the jocker card cup card cup sealed sealed steel loads, could be the first of many such rounds that could become available fairly soon. what are we a week and a half in so far. Early days. More seem interested in obeying self imposed land owners fibe only rules than the steel wad in the game aspect at this stage. I feel there as to be some compromise somewhere. And i think ignoring the plaswad aspect and at least fullfiling the non lead in meat aspect is more important short term, and is what i will be doing certainly untill i can get my hands on some of comercial fibre steel "the jockers perhaps" or have worked out / located wadding and developed my own reloads. At this very moment in time OFF season, i only need worry about pigeons crows rabbits and fox, i will just use rifles on fox and rabbits, "BUT I DO FOX AND RABBIT WITH SHOTGUN" . I will load home dropped bismuth within the month "known develpoped loads" and i will hand mould bismuth in a AAA mould i have for my sighted Fox shooting shotgun i use day calling quite often. Pigeons and crows i will Use Steel in plaswads untill i get other loads with fibre, and i will use up lead i have in hand right now on crows , to clear the decks. But will be Ultimately be looking at steel non plaswad indi cast steel reloads. in the fullness of time. I am looking at Reloading/ load development NON PLASWAD ammo for the coming season from now on, But will use bismuth and copper more this year as i have already developed loads with fibre wads, i will just swap the plas gas seals for inverted cup seals and pressure test, but basicaly i am more of less good to go anyway. WE need more wad options, sooner the better. IMO. Noble and valiant effort. You are one of the 1st people I have heard willing to take this approach. Everybody I have spoken to however is going to continue with lead as long as possible so it will be 5 years or longer if if doesn't become legislation. So this isn't going to change anything on supermarket shelves or the deals the BGA can do until such time it becomes legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Noble and valiant effort. You are one of the 1st people I have heard willing to take this approach. Everybody I have spoken to however is going to continue with lead as long as possible so it will be 5 years or longer if if doesn't become legislation. So this isn't going to change anything on supermarket shelves or the deals the BGA can do until such time it becomes legislation. That Sir is simply down to the company you keep, we only see our own circle. I am not active in game shooting these days but i do Shoot grouse , one day a year by invite and i am involved with the family and neighbouring farms group syndicate. But i really seldom bother shooting these days. In a lot of fowling clubs my main associates in shooting. Hence i think this is why i have differing opinion on far and against to yourself. iIt is not evidence of anything just a reflection of who we are that’s all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, lancer425 said: That Sir is simply down to the company you keep, we only see our own circle. I am not active in game shooting these days but i do Shoot grouse , one day a year by invite and i am involved with the family and neighbouring farms group syndicate. But i really seldom bother shooting these days. In a lot of fowling clubs my main associates in shooting. Hence i think this is why i have differing opinion on far and against to yourself. iIt is not evidence of anything just a reflection of who we are that’s all. Exactly, and it wasn't sent with any animosity whatsoever. It still begs the question on how anything to do with deals on game being done with supermarkets can and will be done in the foreseeable future. I actually return to my 1st valid point I made on this whole debacle if we can by the use of metal detectors ensure that all game sent to supermarkets is shot free then the need to stop using lead would not be the issue. It would put the emphasis wholly and solely on the processors to install the correct metal detectors in the production to give them the confidence to deal with a piece of game which is shot free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: It would put the emphasis wholly and solely on the processors to install the correct metal detectors in the production to give them the confidence to deal with a piece of game which is shot free. That is currently the case …. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Exactly, and it wasn't sent with any animosity whatsoever. It still begs the question on how anything to do with deals on game being done with supermarkets can and will be done in the foreseeable future. I actually return to my 1st valid point I made on this whole debacle if we can by the use of metal detectors ensure that all game sent to supermarkets is shot free then the need to stop using lead would not be the issue. It would put the emphasis wholly and solely on the processors to install the correct metal detectors in the production to give them the confidence to deal with a piece of game which is shot free. They wont buy the product unless we have it to sell them. They want Lead free game, we either give them what they want or they do not want it. PERIOD!. We can debate metal detectors discrimination settings on those detectors until the cows come home, the fact is we need to give them what they want. They want to know that we are compliant, that they are not going to buy in in good faith only to find them all rammed with lead shot. They know what the public wants. Edited March 5, 2020 by lancer425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Working in the food industry, I'm fully aware that "technologists" have a clear desire for any product on the shelf to have no lead (or risk of lead) in it … therefore shooting with steel will be their push. The idea that we would put a toxic metal into a food source is completely unfathomable to them. Assuming this happens … what %age increase in retail demand do we seriously expect. 0-5% for me … and 2 fifths of FA is FA !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, lancer425 said: They wont buy the product unless we have it to sell them. They want Lead free game, we either give them what they want or they do not want it. PERIOD!. But what do they do with the stuff they're paid to take away or given ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I don't think the market will ever be very large in the UK. We simply don't have the same attitude to shooting and its relationship to food and the countryside. If only there was an organisation dedicated to changing that with a relationship with the more mainstream media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, mick miller said: I don't think the market will ever be very large in the UK. We simply don't have the same attitude to shooting and its relationship to food and the countryside. If only there was an organisation dedicated to changing that with a relationship with the more mainstream media. Agreed ! My granddad once said (a farmer by the way) "Food isn't important until your hungry" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 We have a really odd attitude, similar to the Dutch in many ways. But completely unlike the French, Austrians, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, 8 shot said: But what do they do with the stuff they're paid to take away or given ? Fertiliser. AFAIK 1 hour ago, mick miller said: I don't think the market will ever be very large in the UK. We simply don't have the same attitude to shooting and its relationship to food and the countryside. If only there was an organisation dedicated to changing that with a relationship with the more mainstream media. We wont know until we try, i think the government are perhaps hoping it will be. 1 hour ago, 8 shot said: Agreed ! My granddad once said (a farmer by the way) "Food isn't important until your hungry" I think we might be about to get more hungry in this country. I could be wrong but we have a few years to catch up on and lots to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I think personally the attitude currently with the raise in veganism and the Chris Packham effect it would matter if our game was shot M+Ms the perception (in many minds) is Tweed Clad Toffs blasting pheasants for the sheer fun of it. Until a massive undertaking to change public attitude is undertaken to do this then we are not going to change much switching to steel. I would suggest most folk have not got a clue game is shot with lead. (Come on some folk think meat is produced in a factory on a polystyrene tray) High quality shot free products, like goujons, breast fillets, Stir Fry strips, pies and ready meals will sell far more than a cling film wrapped bruised and shot whole bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 36 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Fertiliser. AFAIK Illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 43 minutes ago, Scully said: Illegal. Ok misinformed. Sorry I was only told earlier this week actually, i really had no idea and the lad is usually fairly accurate with his information clearly not this time. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Did you know that that the most valuable part of a game bird is? The feathers, which are ground up as pure protein to support the fur trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, lancer425 said: But what do they do with the stuff they're paid to take away or given ? 1 hour ago, lancer425 said: Fertiliser. AFAIK 1 hour ago, Scully said: Illegal. I can't for one minute think they would bother to drive around one or two shoots for hours picking up several hundred birds to do that. I think you have just lost any credibility you had in thinking the sale of game would improve if we lost lead shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 55 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: I think personally the attitude currently with the raise in veganism and the Chris Packham effect it would matter if our game was shot M+Ms the perception (in many minds) is Tweed Clad Toffs blasting pheasants for the sheer fun of it. Until a massive undertaking to change public attitude is undertaken to do this then we are not going to change much switching to steel. I would suggest most folk have not got a clue game is shot with lead. (Come on some folk think meat is produced in a factory on a polystyrene tray) High quality shot free products, like goujons, breast fillets, Stir Fry strips, pies and ready meals will sell far more than a cling film wrapped bruised and shot whole bird. Our markets could well be abroad. We have to do something, and Lead is toxic its not necessary and we need to look at trying to maintain our credibility in an evermore frigid climate for our way of life. Getting hung up about a pointless futile no win Toxic looser like Lead is Ridiculous. BASC did a great rearguard action on lead, presented it in as favourable light as anyone could a toxic shot type in todays green world. I think they did Lead proud myself. . But now its time to Go. Move on and Follow the advice of our shooting organisations as much as we practically can and look farward to happier times. If we do not change we will never thrive, we will certainly just fade away. 4 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Did you know that that the most valuable part of a game bird is? The feathers, which are ground up as pure protein to support the fur trade. No i did not know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Did you know that that the most valuable part of a game bird is? The feathers, which are ground up as pure protein to support the fur trade. Disagree The memory of it folding up to the gasps and whoops from your fellow guns ... Priceless .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, 8 shot said: I can't for one minute think they would bother to drive around one or two shoots for hours picking up several hundred birds to do that. I think you have just lost any credibility you had in thinking the sale of game would improve if we lost lead shot Slow Down. This was what i replied too to make it clear. "But what do they do with the stuff they're paid to take away or given ? " My reply was "Fertiliser " folow the posts . It should have READ "fertiliser? " In hindsight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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