Even A Blind Squirrel Sometimes Finds A Nut

[JohnfromUK]

38 minutes ago, grrclark said:

you are imposing a control of choice based on a value system that is arbitrary

I would prefer to say 'targeted' than arbitrary.  Targeted to those items that are 'damaging' to the environment, discretionary rather than necessary etc.

40 minutes ago, grrclark said:

There are of course plenty areas right now where it is and bizarrely more and more are asking for more penal measures too, but in the main the tax 'penalty' elements currently are based on health outcome, so tobacco, alcohol and sugar.

I think you have partly answered your own question ........ but in a way - yes, it should penalise where it is a subject item that has a disproportionate cost to 'the public purse or the environment such as health outcomes and global warming.  At present a huge amount of the carbon output is largely discretionary (big thirsty cars, lots of air travel, single use plastics and hidden things like 'bitcoins' etc. - which bizarrely have a massive energy usage.  If the globe is to support the current (and increasing) population - we are going to have to bite some of these bullets - somehow.  Making them 'expensive' seems not a bad way to start?  We also already have a car taxation system where the more thirsty and luxurious cars pay more tax and the most environmentally friendly - very little.  I think broadly the public like that idea.

48 minutes ago, grrclark said:

but that cannot be flat rate as it disproportionately penalises those in the lowe and middle segments, equally it cannot be so heavily weighted to the upper earners either as they are more mobile and would simply move elsewhere.

By having the 'zero', standard' and higher rates - and choosing the scope of each band (i.e. things that are essential to all like foods, water, in zero and things that are damaging environmentally, socially or health wise etc.) in the higher band you shouldn't be penalising 'the low and middle' groups - except where they specifically choose a 'luxury' activity/alternative.  It is a key part that the higher rate should only apply to 'discretionary' items, NOT those everyone would need.

Currently - VERY simply, we all have a monthly income - and monthly fixed expenditure;  Each month there are the 'essentials', food, mortgage, insurance, rates/council tax, fuel/energy, transport.  Once that lot is accounted for - most have some left over - that they may choose to spend on non essentials;  holiday, meals out, jewellery, etc.  It is the 'leftover bit that makes the difference between someone 'struggling' and someone 'comfortably - or well' off - and I agree with you that those struggling shouldn't be paying extra tax.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

I shall ask some of my Singapore colleagues what it is like now.  Given Singapore is basically just a city I don't know if it would be a good analogue for a full fat country anywhere else, but if you could isolate say London and apply the regime to there I reckon it would probably work very well indeed.

I wish they would isolate London 😊😊

And while their at it scrap HS2.

[Raja Clavata]

17 hours ago, old man said:

No insinuation on my part, just an alternative point of view.

Equally, just because pay is above average this is not a benchmark of hard work?

It's possible, maybe, that the definition of hardworking is broad on a personal point of view, from a measure of contribution made to society or the vigour of snout burying in the trough? 😀

Sorry for the delay, I have been rather busy, err, working (i'll refrain from using the word "hard" as it can be applied as either an adverb or adjective - pesky English language).

I agree that pay is not a benchmark of hard work, although I'm not rightly sure why it necessarily should be, speaking personally I have previously earned several times more than what is suggested here to be average without actually doing much real work, and the work I did was certainly not hard - by any measure. I justify this on the basis of having been paid for what I knew, rather than what I did, the point being - superficially at least - that I worked hard previously to attain the qualifications and recognition in industry to enable this to be the case.

Regarding definitions of hardworking, when I was studying I was often dismissed by my peers as being gifted and the learning coming easy to me, all very convenient for lads who were constantly out on the lash and messing around whilst I was sat at home buried in books, not just meeting the grade but turning up to lectures with questions that would get our tutors thinking (working hard for their pay).

Please elaborate on what you actually mean by "contribution made to society" and "snout burying in the trough" - I believe we may be on a path to pigeonwatch gold here and, let's face it, we could all do with a laugh right now...

6 hours ago, Mice! said:

I wish they would isolate London 😊😊

And while their at it scrap HS2.

Trust me, there are plenty of us that wish they would too. HS2 was only conceived to give the rest of England a feeling (illusion) of relevance 😛 

[12gauge82]

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Sorry for the delay, I have been rather busy, err, working (i'll refrain from using the word "hard" as it can be applied as either an adverb or adjective - pesky English language).

I agree that pay is not a benchmark of hard work, although I'm not rightly sure why it necessarily should be, speaking personally I have previously earned several times more than what is suggested here to be average without actually doing much real work, and the work I did was certainly not hard - by any measure. I justify this on the basis of having been paid for what I knew, rather than what I did, the point being - superficially at least - that I worked hard previously to attain the qualifications and recognition in industry to enable this to be the case.

Regarding definitions of hardworking, when I was studying I was often dismissed by my peers as being gifted and the learning coming easy to me, all very convenient for lads who were constantly out on the lash and messing around whilst I was sat at home buried in books, not just meeting the grade but turning up to lectures with questions that would get our tutors thinking (working hard for their pay).

Please elaborate on what you actually mean by "contribution made to society" and "snout burying in the trough" - I believe we may be on a path to pigeonwatch gold here and, let's face it, we could all do with a laugh right now...

Trust me, there are plenty of us that wish they would too. HS2 was only conceived to give the rest of England a feeling (illusion) of relevance 😛 

Sorry to pick up on your post, but on the point of working hard, I agree, that hard work alone should not be solely what dictates pay, however, the system we have, allows those with large amounts of money to very easily make very much more (enabled by very hard working people), often for very little effort (often for a huge amount of effort) and allows them to dodge paying their fair share of tax back into the system that affords them their very privileged lifestyle. I know many people who work much harder than I do and to be fair, put in much more effort than I've needed to, comparitivlly all for very little reward. I believe if the economy goes like I believe it will after this, I'd like to see those who have been allowed to avoid paying their fair share towards the privileged position in society they enjoy, forced to pay this time, unlike the last financial crash, where the employed got relatively much poorer and the very wealthy got about 30% richer over a decade.

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Sorry to pick up on your post, but on the point of working hard, I agree, that hard work alone should not be solely what dictates pay, however, the system we have, allows those with large amounts of money to very easily make very much more (enabled by very hard working people), often for very little effort (often for a huge amount of effort) and allows them to dodge paying their fair share of tax back into the system that affords them their very privileged lifestyle. I know many people who work much harder than I do and to be fair, put in much more effort than I've needed to, comparitivlly all for very little reward. I believe if the economy goes like I believe it will after this, I'd like to see those who have been allowed to avoid paying their fair share towards the privileged position in society they enjoy, forced to pay this time, unlike the last financial crash, where the employed got relatively much poorer and the very wealthy got about 30% richer over a decade.

Morning squire. No problem at all but I have to say I'd be surprised if there's any steel, let alone anything remotely resembling a blade, left on that axe you are grinding 😛 

It's obviously too early to say but I don't think we'll see the economic armageddon you appear to be baying for. For the kind of reset you seem to advocate to be triggered I would think the very fabric of society would have to be on it's knees and at that point who's paying what taxes and where would be the last thing on anybodies mind.

I'm a bit prone to cliches and quotes, especially during reflection after a long working week, but I think this one sums it up:

In times of change, the learners will inherit the earth whereas the learned will find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists - Eric Hoffer.

My take is that for any individual with transferable skills there is still a world of opportunity out there, people that adapt the quickest will do well. Yes it's easier for those already sitting on money to generate income faster than someone starting with next to nothing but relatively speaking the same or similar "opportunity" exists for everyone. Exactly the same principle applies to companies and business.

I honestly don't see the kind of reset you are talking about happening. Yes there could well be lots of people who can no longer work but we all knew that was coming anyway, albeit gradually, seems to me that our energies would be much better spent trying to work this problem out (because someone is going to have to fund all those out of work and contributing nothing in taxes).

https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/four-fundamentals-of-workplace-automation

Like I say, this was gradually coming regardless, it might just be that Mother Nature laid an ace...

[Mice!]

9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Trust me, there are plenty of us that wish they would too. HS2 was only conceived to give the rest of England a feeling (illusion) of relevance 😛 

I'll never understand it, its taking a few minutes off the journey from say Manchester to London? Who really cares, I'd rather the trains we have ran on time.

33 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's obviously too early to say but I don't think we'll see the economic armageddon you appear to be baying for. For the kind of reset you seem to advocate to be triggered I would think the very fabric of society would have to be on it's knees and at that point who's paying what taxes and where would be the last thing on anybodies mind.

I don't see all the forecasted doom and gloom, obviously some are going to be out of work, the self employed are being hit hard, but once people are allowed out again they are going to be working again.

[JohnfromUK]

16 hours ago, Mice! said:

And while their at it scrap HS2.

I have a suspicion that when all the present lockdowns and virus issues are 'resolved' (however that may be), HS2 will be quietly postponed on the grounds that at present the 'economic situation' is not right and there are higher priorities for the (by then very scarce) funds  .......... and it will be gone for a long time, if not 'ever'.

[AVB]

33 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

I don't see all the forecasted doom and gloom, obviously some are going to be out of work, the self employed are being hit hard, but once people are allowed out again they are going to be working again.

That is a very simplistic view. Many businesses will not survive and it is people working, earning money and spending it that results in others being employed, eating money and spending. With the massive amounts on unemployment that we could end up with there will not be the items being bought and services consumed that keeps other people employed. It may only be a coffee shop that goes under but that company employs a couple of people who spend money on other products and services. 

In order for this not to be catastrophic we need to get back to some sense of normality soon. I said all along that the Government won’t relax things until the public demand it. We are beginning to see that happening but still too many people living in fear of the ‘bogie man’ who want the lockdown to stay until it can be guaranteed that there will be no more deaths. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

and it will be gone for a long time, if not 'ever'.

Hope your right.

1 hour ago, AVB said:

In order for this not to be catastrophic we need to get back to some sense of normality soon. I said all along that the Government won’t relax things until the public demand it. We are beginning to see that happening but still too many people living in fear of the ‘bogie man’ who want the lockdown to stay until it can be guaranteed that there will be no more deaths. 

There obviously can't be a guarantee,  I know plenty of people are happy at home getting 80% of pay sat in the sun, once that stops people will want to be back at work, places are starting to look at opening up again.

It's only been 4 or 5 weeks, we aren't being bombed and some things will be different but hopefully things will carry on sooner rather than later.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

I'll never understand it, its taking a few minutes off the journey from say Manchester to London? Who really cares, I'd rather the trains we have ran on time.

It's almost like a vanity or halo project - these kind of things are all very well and good as long as they provide net benefit overall.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have a suspicion that when all the present lockdowns and virus issues are 'resolved' (however that may be), HS2 will be quietly postponed on the grounds that at present the 'economic situation' is not right and there are higher priorities for the (by then very scarce) funds  .......... and it will be gone for a long time, if not 'ever'.

I think this is highly likely too.

1 hour ago, AVB said:

That is a very simplistic view. Many businesses will not survive and it is people working, earning money and spending it that results in others being employed, eating money and spending. With the massive amounts on unemployment that we could end up with there will not be the items being bought and services consumed that keeps other people employed. It may only be a coffee shop that goes under but that company employs a couple of people who spend money on other products and services. 

In order for this not to be catastrophic we need to get back to some sense of normality soon. I said all along that the Government won’t relax things until the public demand it. We are beginning to see that happening but still too many people living in fear of the ‘bogie man’ who want the lockdown to stay until it can be guaranteed that there will be no more deaths. 

Agreed. I would expect to see movement this coming week, as soon as Boris is back at the helm. In reality, in my area at least, I already see things being increasingly relaxed on an informal low key basis and that absolutely makes sense to me.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Morning squire. No problem at all but I have to say I'd be surprised if there's any steel, let alone anything remotely resembling a blade, left on that axe you are grinding 😛 

It's obviously too early to say but I don't think we'll see the economic armageddon you appear to be baying for. For the kind of reset you seem to advocate to be triggered I would think the very fabric of society would have to be on it's knees and at that point who's paying what taxes and where would be the last thing on anybodies mind.

I'm a bit prone to cliches and quotes, especially during reflection after a long working week, but I think this one sums it up:

In times of change, the learners will inherit the earth whereas the learned will find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists - Eric Hoffer.

My take is that for any individual with transferable skills there is still a world of opportunity out there, people that adapt the quickest will do well. Yes it's easier for those already sitting on money to generate income faster than someone starting with next to nothing but relatively speaking the same or similar "opportunity" exists for everyone. Exactly the same principle applies to companies and business.

I honestly don't see the kind of reset you are talking about happening. Yes there could well be lots of people who can no longer work but we all knew that was coming anyway, albeit gradually, seems to me that our energies would be much better spent trying to work this problem out (because someone is going to have to fund all those out of work and contributing nothing in taxes).

https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/four-fundamentals-of-workplace-automation

Like I say, this was gradually coming regardless, it might just be that Mother Nature laid an ace...

Cheers for the reply.

On reflection, what you've said is certainly more realistic and hopefully more likely 👍