Dog goes ballistic removed posts

[WalkedUp]

I went to meet a wealthy client at their large country house in Cheshire early one morning last year. As I walked to greet them their fat English Bulldog jumped up at me. I had meetings all day so didn’t fancy getting rotten or injured, I did what comes naturally which is kneeing the dog forcibly in the gut midair. It crumpled to the floor and then started to behave, never getting closer than 5 yards to me. The owners did not even apologise and looked absolutely shocked. We didn’t get the commission in the end. 

[12gauge82]

I think some people need to put the werthers original down and get back to reality. I couldn't agree more that dogs need training and most people don't understand what they're doing. That said, some of the "advice" on here is idiotic and is bordering being animal cruelty. 

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think some people need to put the werthers original down and get back to reality. I couldn't agree more that dogs need training and most people don't understand what they're doing. That said, some of the "advice" on here is idiotic and is bordering being animal cruelty. 

Can I ask which advice? 
 

You don’t have to hit or whack a dog to tell it off. 

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Can I ask which advice? 
 

You don’t have to hit or whack a dog to tell it off. 

Just read the 2 posts above mine and tell me they offer good advice? 

[WalkedUp]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think some people need to put the werthers original down and get back to reality. I couldn't agree more that dogs need training and most people don't understand what they're doing. That said, some of the "advice" on here is idiotic and is bordering being animal cruelty. 

🙈 if a strange dog jumps up at cow it will get shot, if it jumps up at a man you expect no self defence? 

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

🙈 if a strange dog jumps up at cow it will get shot, if it jumps up at a man you expect no self defence? 

The way its wrote it sounds like a poorly trained dog trying to meet you not attack you. If it had been a truly aggressive dog, you reaction would almost certainly have resulted in you being bitten anyway. 

[WalkedUp]

True. But either way it will result in being injured. 

When my dogs are young people often encourage them to jump up. I never tell the people off. If the pup jumps up it gets scragged down onto its back and then scolded. It is double education. The pups very quickly learn not to jump up even if some fool encourages them to (deliberate or not) and the person realises that when they encourage bad behaviour in dogs it is only the poor dog that suffers. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by WalkedUp

[Lloyd90]

36 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Just read the 2 posts above mine and tell me they offer good advice? 

 

Saltings for some reason has written a massive wall of text that has odd breaking a up, making it a bit difficult to read but he basically says his neighbour had a dog that barked like hell, seems even whilst he underwent chemo and this made is very difficult as they fell out with the neighbours over their barking dogs. 
 

His advice was, the second the dog makes a noise you tell it off, you don’t want until the dog has barked 15+ times and then tell it off. 
 

This is a common problem I see all the time. Someone’s dog howls of barks 15+ times and they ignore it... then tell it off... the dog has done the barking 15+ times without being told off, so why would it think the 16th time it is being told off for making noise? 
 

Clearly considering the amount of times you have been fine with the barking the dog thinks the barking is absolutely fine, and thinks the owner had just randomly told it off for no apparent reason. 
 

If my dog starts making noise or barking I will tell it off the first time, every single time. I never have to tell if off much, because after 3-4 times the dog learns very quickly that I don’t tolerate it making noise. My dog will learn very quickly not to make noise or bark. They get told off (not hit, not beaten, just a harsh voice tone or No!) a few times when young and that’s it! 
 

 

 

 

 

Walked up advice is a dog jumping up on him got a swift boot and didn’t try to do it again. 
 

Once again, I don’t see the issue. I also wouldn’t want someone else’s out of control dog jumping all over myself. 
 

 

 

 

The lesson from both of the above example is that dogs learn from a behaviour and an outcome. 
 

If the dog makes noise and gets told off, the behaviour results in a negative outcome (being told off) and the dog becomes less likely to make noise. If someone praised the dog when it made noise, or came and have it attention (as many many people naively do) then the dog just learns that barking and making noise is a great thing to do as it results in something great happening. 
 

 

In walked ups example, if the dog jumps up and gets praised and patted on the headed (as again often happens) then it becomes more and more likely to do just that. It’s easy to say someone should only use positive training methods, but it’s not his dog. It’s the owners problem to sort (which they clearly aren’t bothered about). If someone’s out of control dog tries to jump all over me it would get a clip over the head and told to get off in no uncertain terms. 
 

 

 

 

 

To fix the OP’s problem, I would out the dog in the car many many times, even if just going to the shops, going for a drive around the block, going anywhere, I would tell the dog to be quite if barking, and I wouldn’t reward it for doing so, eg I wouldn’t let it out or the car for walks or fun or training until it was sat calmly, quietly and showing the behaviour I wanted. 
 

Leaving the dog go berserk and then letting it out for the walk is rewarding that behaviour and making it worse and worse. 
 

 

[WalkedUp]

 

3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

o fix the OP’s problem, I would out the dog in the car many many times, even if just going to the shops, going for a drive around the block, going anywhere, I would tell the dog to be quite if barking, and I wouldn’t reward it for doing so, eg I wouldn’t let it out or the car for walks or fun or training until it was sat calmly, quietly and showing the behaviour I wanted. 

This ^

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Saltings for some reason has written a massive wall of text that has odd breaking a up, making it a bit difficult to read but he basically says his neighbour had a dog that barked like hell, seems even whilst he underwent chemo and this made is very difficult as they fell out with the neighbours over their barking dogs. 
 

His advice was, the second the dog makes a noise you tell it off, you don’t want until the dog has barked 15+ times and then tell it off. 
 

This is a common problem I see all the time. Someone’s dog howls of barks 15+ times and they ignore it... then tell it off... the dog has done the barking 15+ times without being told off, so why would it think the 16th time it is being told off for making noise? 
 

Clearly considering the amount of times you have been fine with the barking the dog thinks the barking is absolutely fine, and thinks the owner had just randomly told it off for no apparent reason. 
 

If my dog starts making noise or barking I will tell it off the first time, every single time. I never have to tell if off much, because after 3-4 times the dog learns very quickly that I don’t tolerate it making noise. My dog will learn very quickly not to make noise or bark. They get told off (not hit, not beaten, just a harsh voice tone or No!) a few times when young and that’s it! 
 

 

 

 

 

Walked up advice is a dog jumping up on him got a swift boot and didn’t try to do it again. 
 

Once again, I don’t see the issue. I also wouldn’t want someone else’s out of control dog jumping all over myself. 
 

 

 

 

The lesson from both of the above example is that dogs learn from a behaviour and an outcome. 
 

If the dog makes noise and gets told off, the behaviour results in a negative outcome (being told off) and the dog becomes less likely to make noise. If someone praised the dog when it made noise, or came and have it attention (as many many people naively do) then the dog just learns that barking and making noise is a great thing to do as it results in something great happening. 
 

 

In walked ups example, if the dog jumps up and gets praised and patted on the headed (as again often happens) then it becomes more and more likely to do just that. It’s easy to say someone should only use positive training methods, but it’s not his dog. It’s the owners problem to sort (which they clearly aren’t bothered about). If someone’s out of control dog tries to jump all over me it would get a clip over the head and told to get off in no uncertain terms. 
 

 

 

 

 

To fix the OP’s problem, I would out the dog in the car many many times, even if just going to the shops, going for a drive around the block, going anywhere, I would tell the dog to be quite if barking, and I wouldn’t reward it for doing so, eg I wouldn’t let it out or the car for walks or fun or training until it was sat calmly, quietly and showing the behaviour I wanted. 
 

Leaving the dog go berserk and then letting it out for the walk is rewarding that behaviour and making it worse and worse. 
 

 

Yep I get all that, it's very basic and in dog training world is known as operant conditioning. But if they're are jumping to harsh methods of training for such simple issues, they clearly haven't a clue. They wouldn't last 5 minutes trying to train a truly aggressive dog. 

[WalkedUp]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

Yep I get all that, it's very basic and in dog training world is known as operant conditioning. But if they're are jumping to harsh methods of training for such simple issues, they clearly haven't a clue. They wouldn't last 5 minutes trying to train a truly aggressive dog. 

I wouldn’t train an aggressive dog. I would put a bullet into it. 

[12gauge82]

Just now, WalkedUp said:

I wouldn’t train an aggressive dog. I would put a bullet into it. 

And that shows the limit of your ability as a dog trainer and shows your lack of ability, so why you think your qualified to offer advice to people on a forum about dog training is beyond me. 

[WalkedUp]

I have trained, competed with and won awards with multiple dogs. I also am frequently employed to train dogs/handlers (though I despise this and avoid it). I do not have a FTCh yet but that’s the ambition with the next dog. 

However, my advice on dog training comes as a citizen rather than a handler. If your dog jumps up on someone and injures them it could be destroyed. I would have no hesitation with that. 

[clangerman]

all dogs are different clanger would obey with a scold present pup couldn’t care less for a scold had to up and up it to a LIGHT tap on the nose plus a loud no to stop her nipping or she would still be doing it you have to use what it takes for each dog or you could ruin a soft one or fail with a strong one 

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

all dogs are different clanger would obey with a scold present pup couldn’t care less for a scold had to up and up it to a LIGHT tap on the nose plus a loud no to stop her nipping or she would still be doing it you have to use what it takes for each dog or you could ruin a soft one or fail with a strong one 

That's the most crucial point, all dogs are different and solution's need to be different, they're not robots and like people have different personalities. 

I have seen dogs (granted they're not pets) where phisical punishment will simply not work and neither do you really want it to, they would simply ignore any phisical punishment and it would result in being seriously bitten, other non phisical methods were used and these are probably some of the most dominant dogs you could get. 

While dogs must respect you as leader, anyone who says the only way to achieve this is by dominating a dog and showing it who's boss all the time doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, it's a very old school of training which thankfully has been shown to be inferior to modern techniques the best you can hope for with that type of training is a dog at the end that does what it's told through fear, it doesn't build a confident dog and that's not what you want with a working dog regardless if it's a gun dog, a drug detection dog, protection dog, or even a milatry working dog. 

27 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I have trained, competed with and won awards with multiple dogs. I also am frequently employed to train dogs/handlers (though I despise this and avoid it). I do not have a FTCh yet but that’s the ambition with the next dog. 

However, my advice on dog training comes as a citizen rather than a handler. If your dog jumps up on someone and injures them it could be destroyed. I would have no hesitation with that. 

I find that very hard to believe with the advice you've given out above. I've never had a dog that jumps up but I've never needed to knee one in the guts either, the person that does that to a dog doesn't have a clue about dog training. 

 

[WalkedUp]

Well we disagree. I see far too many “modern” dog owners with problem dogs. I have never seen a “traditional” trainer with a problem dog. Go to the park and see it. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by WalkedUp

[12gauge82]

38 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I wouldn’t train an aggressive dog. I would put a bullet into it. 

With dog training advice like that I know who most sane peope would choose to come to solve they're issues. You clearly haven't a clue, your another person who has owned a couple of dogs and thinks that makes them a dog trainer, your posts in this thread prove otherwise, I just pity your dogs and anyone's dogs who's owners have listened to you. 

[WalkedUp]

Interestingly non sequitur. 

Owning 5 dogs has not given me the right to dislike badly trained dogs in public places, being a citizen gives me that right.

I am sure that you have trained 100s of dogs and have several FTCh in your kennels, however I do not (and never will) believe that you are right to think your dogs should be allowed to jump up at people.

Edited October 23, 2020 by WalkedUp

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Interestingly non sequitur. 

Owning 5 dogs has not given me the right to dislike badly trained dogs in public places, being a citizen gives me that right.

I am sure that you have trained 100s of dogs and have several FTCh in your kennels, however I do not (and never will) believe that you are right to think your dogs should be allowed to jump up at people.

No it's not right to allow your dogs to jump at people, it's also not right to knee a dog in the guts and is a very poor method of training a dog, particularly when that advice comes from someone proporting to be a dog trainer. 

[WalkedUp]

I wasn’t training the dog! I was stopping it from jumping up at me! I’m not about so start giving them dog training advice the minute I meet them 🙈🙈🙈

Edited October 23, 2020 by WalkedUp

[Remimax]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

No it's not right to allow your dogs to jump at people, it's also not right to knee a dog in the guts and is a very poor method of training a dog, particularly when that advice comes from someone proporting to be a dog trainer. 

out of intrest how would you correct that behaviour .

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Remimax said:

out of intrest how would you correct that behaviour .

That question has hundreds of answers as it depends on the dog and the reason it's jumping up, which is why I get annoyed when people give advice like it's gospel over the net, what works for one dog won't necessarily work for another but there's a range of options from withholding attention by everyone who comes to visit until it learns that's not how to get it, some very driven dogs would rather the negative attention of a telling off than to stop jumping up and getting ignored, it really depends on the dog, but is almost certainly very easy to solve, particularly without kneeing it in the guts. 

[WalkedUp]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That question has hundreds of answers as it depends on the dog and the reason it's jumping up, which is why I get annoyed when people give advice like it's gospel over the net, what works for one dog won't necessarily work for another but there's a range of options from withholding attention by everyone who comes to visit until it learns that's not how to get it, some very driven dogs would rather the negative attention of a telling off than to stop jumping up and getting ignored, it really depends on the dog, but is almost certainly very easy to solve, particularly without kneeing it in the guts. 

Who has given advice as if it was gospel? You need to reread the posts and then reassess your replies. 

You have seen “X” written and then said ‘I can’t belive you said “Y”’, I completely understand that you may have misread the thread (easily done) but before digging in on a losing wicket it may be best to go back a reread what was actually written? 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by WalkedUp

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Who has given advice as if it was gospel? You need to reread the posts and then reassess your replies. 

You have seen “X” written and then said ‘I can’t belive you said “Y”’, I completely understand that you may have misread the thread (easily done) but before digging in on a losing wicket it may be best to go back a reread what was actually written? 

 

The fact you think kneeling a dog in the guts to stop it jumping up at you says to me you are not even a good dog owner, much less a trainer. 

I'm leaving this thread as I've derailed it enough, I only posted as I worry people will read some of the garbage posted and through no fault of their own think it's the right thing to do. I've seen enough messed up dogs in my life I simply don't like the thought of more being created. 

[WalkedUp]

I am not a good dog owner because when a strange dog jumps at me I knee it? 

I can see that you are a very affectionate dog lover, which is great, I train and own dogs - I generally cannot abide animal-lover-donate-to-the-donkey-sanctuary people but I think we both want to see well behaved dogs at the end of the day.