Masks

[AVB]

This isn’t a post to discuss the pros or cons of masks. 

I know that the wearing of masks is mandatory in certain circumstances but if you have a medical condition you can be exempt. It is also illegal to ask somebody for the reason why they are exempt and they don’t have to give any details of their condition  

Ignoring Covid, how does that work in a hospital? If a surgeon had a medical condition that prevented them wearing one would they be allowed to work? If not, isn’t that discrimination in the same way that you can’t ask why somebody isn’t wearing a mask for Covid. I should have asked my mates yesterday but only thought of this today. 
 

 

[grrclark]

I expect that similar to having to have a chainsaw certification and wear PPE to use a saw during work, there is no equivalent requirement for non work use.

So as wearing a mask is a mandatory requirement of employment as a surgeon they couldn't opt out.

In your industry you may have to disclose if you had any negative financial history, but in other industries if asked that same question you could take action.

Horses for courses

[AVB]

4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I expect that similar to having to have a chainsaw certification and wear PPE to use a saw during work, there is no equivalent requirement for non work use.

So as wearing a mask is a mandatory requirement of employment as a surgeon they couldn't opt out.

In your industry you may have to disclose if you had any negative financial history, but in other industries if asked that same question you could take action.

Horses for courses

Thanks.  Hadn’t thought of the comparisons. Considering that ‘medical exemption’ is the common reason for not wearing a covid one, and also the anger from some people towards those not wearing them (just seen a tweet from Hugh Pym on the subject) I would have though the authorities would have thought of a solution. Not that I can easily think of one. 
 

 

[grrclark]

1 minute ago, AVB said:

Thanks.  Hadn’t thought of the comparisons. Considering that ‘medical exemption’ is the common reason for not wearing a covid one, and also the anger from some people towards those not wearing them (just seen a tweet from Hugh Pym on the subject) I would have though the authorities would have thought of a solution. Not that I can easily think of one. 

There was a campaign for people to wear a lanyard with daisies on, I think, to show an exemption but of course anybody could wear one.

Ultimately you have to rely on shopkeepers, etc to police and that is the bit that is unsustainable whatever mechanism may be used to demonstrate exemption.

If you're a shop worker on pretty much a minimum wage would you go out your way to police something not of your making with all the grief that brings?

[AVB]

5 minutes ago, grrclark said:

There was a campaign for people to wear a lanyard with daisies on, I think, to show an exemption but of course anybody could wear one.

Ultimately you have to rely on shopkeepers, etc to police and that is the bit that is unsustainable whatever mechanism may be used to demonstrate exemption.

If you're a shop worker on pretty much a minimum wage would you go out your way to police something not of your making with all the grief that brings?

How do shopkeepers police if they can’t ask questions?  I’ve also seen the police fall foul of this. Trying to fine people for not providing details of their exemption. 

[grrclark]

12 minutes ago, AVB said:

How do shopkeepers police if they can’t ask questions?  I’ve also seen the police fall foul of this. Trying to fine people for not providing details of their exemption. 

They can't so therefor don't I guess.

It is just another example of bad law.  Wholly meretricious and unable to be effectively policed so as a consequence is ultimately self defeating.  We sadly seem to have an ever increasing desire to implement more of the same sort of stupidity.

[Mice!]

59 minutes ago, AVB said:

Thanks.  Hadn’t thought of the comparisons. Considering that ‘medical exemption’ is the common reason for not wearing a covid one, and also the anger from some people towards those not wearing them (just seen a tweet from Hugh Pym on the subject) I would have though the authorities would have thought of a solution. Not that I can easily think of one. 
 

 

Have you not seen the full hood type some are wearing in hospitals, plastic face, with a respirator. 

Massive difference though if a surgeon couldn't wear a mask and someone is just too lazy to put one on for going into the shops.

Of course there will be genuine reasons some come can't wear one, many just can't be bothered. 

A lot of parents weren't wearing them in the playground at pick up time, an email went out saying one parent to pick up and wear a mask, it's funny how when different years started getting sent home because pupils or staff had tested positive the none wearers started wearing masks. 

Lad in the hair dressers the other week said he couldn't wear them because of Asthma but had just been fitting a heating system in a loft?? But did wear one to stop people staring? 

[AVB]

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

They can't so therefor don't I guess.

It is just another example of bad law.  Wholly meretricious and unable to be effectively policed so as a consequence is ultimately self defeating.  We sadly seem to have an ever increasing desire to implement more of the same sort of stupidity.

The byproduct of rushed through legislation I suppose. 

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, AVB said:

The byproduct of rushed through legislation I suppose. 

It is very much that.

 Drakeford is going to legislate to limit Christmas Day mixing to 2 households only in Wales.  More bad legislation just for the sake of having it.

I think a big part of the problem is that the message has been so inconsistent and varied and full of so many contradictions that people no longer listen, or they are genuinely confused.  As a result the government, devolved or UK, think the answer is to up the ante and make it law.

The consequence of that is that we will criminalise many good people for no benefit or betterment and all because of rank rotten leadership.

[AVB]

4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

It is very much that.

 Drakeford is going to legislate to limit Christmas Day mixing to 2 households only in Wales.  More bad legislation just for the sake of having it.

I think a big part of the problem is that the message has been so inconsistent and varied and full of so many contradictions that people no longer listen, or they are genuinely confused.  As a result the government, devolved or UK, think the answer is to up the ante and make it law.

The consequence of that is that we will criminalise many good people for no benefit or betterment and all because of rank rotten leadership.

Interesting to know whether there would have been a difference in the number of people wearing masks if the government had strongly advised it rather than made it law with a get out you can drive a bus through. Personally I don’t think there would have a been a major difference. 

[team tractor]

We have a no mask no entry policy in our workshop/showroom and certainly no one in the workshop area /toilets . 
I’m asthmatic and so is my dad plus I have staff to think about . 
The issue is if my lads get ill and blame us. It could ruin us . 
it’s a simple little thing 

[AVB]

3 minutes ago, team tractor said:

We have a no mask no entry policy in our workshop/showroom and certainly no one in the workshop area /toilets . 
I’m asthmatic and so is my dad plus I have staff to think about . 
The issue is if my lads get ill and blame us. It could ruin us . 
it’s a simple little thing 

I assume you are referring to members of the public? In which case I am not sure that is legal. Surely the medical exemptions apply and you aren’t allowed to question people’s reasons. 
 

legally it’s the same as saying you won’t allow people in who are in wheelchairs unless they can prove why they need the wheelchair. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by AVB

[Mice!]

41 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Drakeford is going to legislate to limit Christmas Day mixing to 2 households only in Wales.  More bad legislation just for the sake of having it.

There was a hospital in South Wales on the news earlier that showed ten? Ambulances waiting outside with patients in each of them,  I'm not sure if they had to wait to be covid tested before they were aloud in, but it looked grim, they said you could be waiting in there for up to 10 hours!!

Because of that I'm surprised Wales didn't stop the whole festivities at xmas.

Lots of experts are saying that the three households can meet up is going to be a mistake,  but I just don't think the government can stop it, so they're letting it happen. 

30 minutes ago, AVB said:

I assume you are referring to members of the public? In which case I am not sure that is legal. Surely the medical exemptions apply and you aren’t allowed to question people’s reasons. 
 

legally it’s the same as saying you won’t allow people in who are in wheelchairs unless they can prove why they need the wheelchair. 

Why would someone not be able to insist on masks being worn on private premises?

They are protecting themselves,  their employees and their livelihoods. 

If you can't wear a mask then you don't go in.

Many places of work say you must wear hearing protection and safety glasses, if you can't wear them you can't go in.

[Newbie to this]

Many places of work say you must wear a hard hat, yet some are exempt 

[team tractor]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

 

Why would someone not be able to insist on masks being worn on private premises?

They are protecting themselves,  their employees and their livelihoods. 

If you can't wear a mask then you don't go in.

Many places of work say you must wear hearing protection and safety glasses, if you can't wear them you can't go in.

It would destroy us as a business plus I feel a duty of care for my lads too. 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Many places of work say you must wear a hard hat, yet some are exempt 

Where? Certainly not on the sites I visit. You would get such a ####ing lol. 

[AVB]

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

There was a hospital in South Wales on the news earlier that showed ten? Ambulances waiting outside with patients in each of them,  I'm not sure if they had to wait to be covid tested before they were aloud in, but it looked grim, they said you could be waiting in there for up to 10 hours!!

Because of that I'm surprised Wales didn't stop the whole festivities at xmas.

Lots of experts are saying that the three households can meet up is going to be a mistake,  but I just don't think the government can stop it, so they're letting it happen. 

Why would someone not be able to insist on masks being worn on private premises?

They are protecting themselves,  their employees and their livelihoods. 

If you can't wear a mask then you don't go in.

Many places of work say you must wear hearing protection and safety glasses, if you can't wear them you can't go in.

As I said I assumed he was talking about members of the public as he mentioned a showroom. Would he be able to say “you can’t come in as you are in a wheelchair”? 

[team tractor]

49 minutes ago, AVB said:

As I said I assumed he was talking about members of the public as he mentioned a showroom. Would he be able to say “you can’t come in as you are in a wheelchair”? 

My staff and our own health come first. If they turn up in a wheel chair they would struggle as it’s up stairs .  
We also refuse to work at houses with customers around unless they wear a mask too. 
my business couldn’t manage another lock down or isolation period so it’s important we try to do everything we can .

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, team tractor said:

My staff and our own health come first. If they turn up in a wheel chair they would struggle as it’s up stairs .  
We also refuse to work at houses with customers around unless they wear a mask too. 
my business couldn’t manage another lock down or isolation period so it’s important we try to do everything we can .

Which is entirely reasonable, although it is extremely unlikely to happen if you got a particularly militant customer with a genuine exemption who insisted on not wearing a mask they could attempt to sue you for discrimination.  Which is absurd, but a reality.

Whether it would ever stand up in court is a different issue.  I expect that someone with such respiratory limitations wouldn't want to visit a wood working shop, even with good extraction for dust.

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Where? Certainly not on the sites I visit. You would get such a ####ing lol. 

You obviously don't go on building sites much, I have seen it on numerous occasions with my own eyes.

There are exemptions on wearing hard hats for 'religious'/cultural beliefs. Same exemptions for wearing a crash helmet on a motorbike.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/sikhs-head-protection.htm

Edited December 17, 2020 by Newbie to this

[team tractor]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

Which is entirely reasonable, although it is extremely unlikely to happen if you got a particularly militant customer with a genuine exemption who insisted on not wearing a mask they could attempt to sue you for discrimination.  Which is absurd, but a reality.

Whether it would ever stand up in court is a different issue.  I expect that someone with such respiratory limitations wouldn't want to visit a wood working shop, even with good extraction for dust.

I find the people that refuse are often the very people that need it . 
I’m asthmatic and my dad . 

[AVB]

13 minutes ago, team tractor said:

I find the people that refuse are often the very people that need it . 
I’m asthmatic and my dad . 

I think what you are doing is understandable and admirable. However, as Graham says it could leave yourself open to being prosecuted if somebody wants to make an issue of it. I also read that challenging somebody who isn’t wearing a mask could be classified as a hate crime. Sounds ridiculous but who knows in the crazy world we live in. Don’t forget it’s not just some people with respiratory conditions who can’t wear mask there are people with psychological conditions such as PTSD who can’t wear a mask. 

[team tractor]

6 hours ago, AVB said:

I think what you are doing is understandable and admirable. However, as Graham says it could leave yourself open to being prosecuted if somebody wants to make an issue of it. I also read that challenging somebody who isn’t wearing a mask could be classified as a hate crime. Sounds ridiculous but who knows in the crazy world we live in. Don’t forget it’s not just some people with respiratory conditions who can’t wear mask there are people with psychological conditions such as PTSD who can’t wear a mask. 

I had a guy come in the other day refusing . I said I guess your the same as me with asthma ? He said the elastic hurts his face  
tbh every one else has been really understanding and carry a mask but we do supply . 

[treetree]

22 hours ago, team tractor said:

We also refuse to work at houses with customers around unless they wear a mask too. 
 

I hope you make them aware of this before you take on the work for them so those who don't like being dictated to in their own homes can take their business elsewhere.

[team tractor]

2 hours ago, treetree said:

I hope you make them aware of this before you take on the work for them so those who don't like being dictated to in their own homes can take their business elsewhere.

They all know it . Funny enough I’m fully booked for 4 months too. 
why should I risk my health and staff ? I’m a business not a one man band . We loose £15,000-20,000 a month  for every month we shut . 
most people just go out to work and leave us to it 

Edited December 18, 2020 by team tractor