The selling of re-loaded C/F rifle cartridges.

[Sidelock133]

I have recently and unwittingly bought some rifle ammo at auction which has certainly been hand/re-loaded. 

Now we should ALL see the sense which would surround the practise of buying/selling any rifle ammo which may not OR doesn't conform toe CIP/SAAmi Regs. ~ the simple fact is that it makes no sense and we all accept that.

Let us imagine a live primer being inserted in to the case head,  any or even no propellent inserted,  the cartridge goes off and by the pressure of the primer alone,  the bullet leaves the case but stays in the barrel.  

My argument here is that if C/F ammo doesn't conform to the regulations which were a condition of the original sale,  can anyone head me towards clear and unequivocal stated Law which clearly states 'It is a criminal offence if ……..'?  Under the Sale of Goods Act,  the goods are clearly not as described,  but my question surrounds that of legality.

I have been in touch with the GTA and they seem rather unsure.  Getting through to The London Proof House is all but impossible …….. I'm hoping that there will be someone on here who can bring a degree of clarity to the question.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Caveat emptor!

Did you attend the sale or bid on line?

[Sidelock133]

On line, attendance wasn't permitted ~ and neither was prior inspection.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Sidelock133
clarity

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Then that should strengthen your case, have you brought this to the attention of the auction house?

[Sidelock133]

I have,  only to be told ~ we rely upon people like you to tell us where we may be wrong. …….. but that isn't or shouldn't be the point.  Most,  and I suspect the Law,  would argue that it's the duty of the Trader to familiarise themselves with the topic in hand. 

If ALL factory loaded ammunition has to pass stringent CIP/SAAMI testing before a licence to issue is granted,  do these terms also apply to non-standard ammo? 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Sidelock133
Clarity.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I was wondering if they might have replied that they expected you to break down the rounds and recover the components.

 

I have always thought it was illegal to sell home loads.

 

I wish you well in your attempt to sort this out.

[Windswept]

Auction houses seem to have their own unique laws. I thought it wasn't legal and I know it's often advised against. However, this reply from Bill Harriman says it's perfectly legal reload for someone else but doesn't mention selling. If you're a member of BASC they may be able to advise?

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/legal-answers/reloading-cartridges-for-a-friend-117495

 

[old man]

From memory to give reloads away providing the necessary possession paperwork was ok but to sell I required some form of proof house paperwork?

Must try to verify.

 

[Sidelock133]

I've just spoken with someone who represents the auction house concerned and he advised me that it was a case of Caveat Emptor ~ I in turn advised him that he was skating on very thin ice. …….. we'll see what comes next! 😉

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good luck, watching with interest.

[ditchman]

lets face it............who in their right mind would put.......ammunition made by someone else who you have never heard of thro' the barrel of your rifle.........there is no bloody way i would put stuff thro my gun i didnt know about

i would only ever use factory fresh rounds with batch numbers.....or my own loads.............not even my best mate loads...........end of

[Sidelock133]

6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Good luck, watching with interest.

I've just had a 'phone call ~ the auction house will collect the goods from me. 😉

[Vince Green]

A personal FAC (or SGC) does not allow for commercial activity. I think that what people are referring to when they say its illegal to sell reloads 

[Sidelock133]

3 minutes ago, ditchman said:

lets face it............who in their right mind would put.......ammunition made by someone else who you have never heard of thro' the barrel of your rifle.........there is no bloody way i would put stuff thro my gun i didnt know about

i would only ever use factory fresh rounds with batch numbers.....or my own loads.............not even my best mate loads...........end of

I accept that my opening post wasn't too clear;  the cartridges concerned would be considered as collectable - big bore stuff which would probably be 60-70 years old - plus.

The question of selling re-loads on the open market though,  remains.  If a batch of re-loaded modern ammo was sold without warning,  as it seems it's legal to do,  the consequences for haphazard home-loads and with dangerously high breach pressures - as risky from a sub-light load as from an overload,  must be obvious. 

7 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

A personal FAC (or SGC) does not allow for commercial activity. I think that what people are referring to when they say its illegal to sell reloads 

…. an interesting observation.  The particular cartridges in question also appear at other auctions,  they fall in to a recognisable pattern and I'm all but certain that they come from a commercial outlet. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Sidelock133 said:

I've just had a 'phone call ~ the auction house will collect the goods from me. 😉

They appear to have seen sense, much better than a possible legal battle, one might hope they are more attentive to their actions and liabilities from now on.

Will you spend the refund on some factory loads?

[Sidelock133]

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

They appear to have seen sense, much better than a possible legal battle, one might hope they are more attentive to their actions and liabilities from now on.

Will you spend the refund on some factory loads?

There's a certain arrogance attached to some aspects of the auction business,  which I find surprising.  In business,  I treat my clients with respect.  

I collect cartridges and sometimes that leads me in to the near exotic,  but few would be considered as usable.  As collectors pieces,  they need to be as original issue,  and whilst re-loads may be of interest to some,  for me originality is the key.  Some of the relatively modern calibers and cartridges are of interest;  the .700 Nitros and some of the In House rounds - the Westley Richards Raffiky rounds,  for instance.  One of my pride and joys is a round of original Kynoch issue a .577/600 Rewa.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I quite agree, I used to collect years ago and part of the fun was the hunt, finding odd and unusual rounds and often in private sales, the owner did not really know what he had.

I too used to collect the big game calibres and old brass foil rounds.

I was also lucky to get hold of some Soviet mortar propellant charges, but that sort of thing was rare and a perk.

[Sidelock133]

Do you,  or does anyone know if there is a UK based Collectors Club for Ordnance?  I've searched the internet but the only group that I can find is in the US.  Judging by the buying interest at auction,  there's certainly a growing interest.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Have you tried these?

United Kingdom Cartridge Club

British Cartridge Collectors Club

[Sidelock133]

18 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Have you tried these?

United Kingdom Cartridge Club

British Cartridge Collectors Club

The only lines that appear when I google those Clubs,  refer to American clubs.  I see nothing which is UK based.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Sidelock133
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