Older Nitro Proofed SbS

[Petay]

I'm considering an older Damascus BLE, walls are decent with thinest being 0.25" but the Nitro proof is the original 1 1/8oz - markings suggest a 1904 - 1925 proof period but I've not seen it in person yet so could well be the 1925 - 1954 period marks, either way its before 1954.

Intended use occasion 21g loads through it for clays and perhaps as a treat on any walked up days I do - no more than 28g 5s or 6s. I'll use lead until I can't and I'm hoping by then there will be more of the bismuth alloys akin to bio ammo available although I know views on standard steel through Damascus are mixed.

its from a respectable dealer.

 

Assuming no bulging, dents, pitting to the barrels should I be worried about the older nitro proof or just crack on and buy it and enjoy a beautiful old Damascus gun?

[TOPGUN749]

If it still measures in proof,and the action is tight without pitting or dents,then I would use it especially with 65mm light loads.It was proofed to 32 grams so 21,or 24 should be comfortable.Side by sides have very little value now,and often sell for a few pounds unless something rare and special.

[holloway]

Crack on and enjoy it .

[Gunman]

1 hour ago, Petay said:

I'm considering an older Damascus BLE, walls are decent with thinest being 0.25" but the Nitro proof is the original 1 1/8oz - markings suggest a 1904 - 1925 proof period but I've not seen it in person yet so could well be the 1925 - 1954 period marks, either way its before 1954.

Intended use occasion 21g loads through it for clays and perhaps as a treat on any walked up days I do - no more than 28g 5s or 6s. I'll use lead until I can't and I'm hoping by then there will be more of the bismuth alloys akin to bio ammo available although I know views on standard steel through Damascus are mixed.

its from a respectable dealer.

 

Assuming no bulging, dents, pitting to the barrels should I be worried about the older nitro proof or just crack on and buy it and enjoy a beautiful old Damascus gun?

Difficult to advise without more detail .There are numerous things to consider when buying any gun , more so when buying an older gun. 

Is the seller private or a dealer , have the bores and wall dimensions been verified ? 

Are ribs sound , is the action reasonably tight , on face with sufficient bite ?

Is it mostly original or has there been renovations ,are the stock and forend wood in fair condition ?

Does every thing work correctly , ejectors if fitted , safe , cocks and fires etc. 

The make and type of action , ejectos if fitted lever work , forend catch , engraving will and can affect the guns potential value . So if not sure always advisable to buy on condition it will pass an inspection by a professional .

[enfieldspares]

In theory and, as Greener showed, in practice SOUND IN GOOD ORDER damascus barrels are safer than steel barrels as they will bulge rather than burst. The issue is that the things are old. Having said that there are carving knives in my house that are now, at least, one hundred years old so metal doesn't suddenly fail if it was sound when it was made. If it wasn't sound when it was made it may still "pass" bu the flaw, the fault, the weak spot still remains and may fail.

What you need to consider is the dimensions of the bore vis-a-vis the actual proof dimensions stamped on the barrels. All if old enough in this game have seen guns where the bore is pristine despite the gun being years old. That may be because the gun has been well looked after. But it may also be that the pitting that it did have has been bored out such that the bore is pristine but the gun is only or two thou in proof.

It's one benefit that on continental guns the barrel weight is stamped on the barrels so they can be weighed and reveal this loss of metal on simple scales without the need for more complicated devices. So my advice CHECK THE BORE DIMENSIONS AGAINST THE PROOF MARKS ON THE GUN.

Next check the ejector system used. Everybody pretty much uses Southgate style ejectors except Purdey and Boss. There's a reason for that. The Southgate is easily regulated, easily fixed, and any good gunsmith understands it and is familiar with it. Baker systems, Westley "box" systems and all the rest are better avoided. They require more skill, often more parts, and usually more time if they get out of order. This means money!

I assume you know how to test ejectors the correct way? That is not the usual gunshop method of insert two snap caps, pull both triggers one after the other and break the gun holding the hand over the breech (like when clay shooting) to catch the ejected snap caps. That proves little! For those that may wish to know here is the correct way (or one of a number of correct ways).

Load two snap caps in the gun. Put the gun on safe. Pull both triggers. Take the gun off safe. Now open the gun. In effect nothing should happen. The gun should not fire nor should anything eject!

Next close the gun in the two snap caps. Gun off safe pull right trigger. Open gun and allow the fired snap cap to eject freely. Again ONLY that side should eject. Now load two snap caps again and put gun off safe and pull left trigger. Open the gun to allow snap cap to eject freely. Again ONLY that left side should eject.

This is the test that some sellers fear! Be afraid! LOL! Put two snap snaps in the gun and pull both triggers one after the other as if shooting at a normal pair of birds. Now push the top lever across to part open...part open...the gun only as far as to let the underbolt unlock from the  barrel lumps (or lugs). Now grasp the gun at the barrels with the left hand and using the right had gently tap the stock downwards and fraction at a time. Not one movement but taps.

As you tap you should hear one click. Keep tapping....nearly there...then eventually one further small tap should see BOTH ejectors fire at the same exact time. IF THEY ARE CORRECTLY REGULATED. If they go one after the other but not simultaneously together the ejectors are not correctly regulated. Assuming that they do both "fire" together also watch how the snap caps eject. Again if properly regulated the two snap caps should fly out parrallel, side by side, almost as if connected ti each other by a piece of string.

How far do they fly? Not really that important as long as they do fly far enough to easily clear the breech. Once all that is done then, yes,put two snap caps back in and fire and break open the gun as if on a game day peg and see how the two snap caps eject. Here's a video by Pathe of Lang in London with a gun that clearly is not regulated if you slow the film right down!

Look at 3:06 and you'll see that tapping method I describe. Keep the video at normal speed. Now go back and play it at half speed or slower! That gun's ejectors aren't regulated! Not a lot of people notice at normal speed. They do at half speed. Which proves that the "usual gunshop method" as noted above isn't a proper test!

 

[Petay]

don't have the bore measurements to hand as I didn't write them down but from memory they were stamped at .729 and are now .731/.732 so mot particularly concerning or bad I don't think? as said minimum wall is 0.25" and other barrel was 0.28: I think.

As mentioned the gun comes for a respectable dealer so I'm not worried about other mechanical issues or anything else as such, more a case of trying to have some confidence on being able to use it into the future.

[Gunman]

2 hours ago, Petay said:

don't have the bore measurements to hand as I didn't write them down but from memory they were stamped at .729 and are now .731/.732 so mot particularly concerning or bad I don't think? as said minimum wall is 0.25" and other barrel was 0.28: I think.

As mentioned the gun comes for a respectable dealer so I'm not worried about other mechanical issues or anything else as such, more a case of trying to have some confidence on being able to use it into the future.

If its marked .729 and damascus then its almost certainly  a reproof .

[Petay]

13 minutes ago, Gunman said:

If its marked .729 and damascus then its almost certainly  a reproof .

can you elaborate on that?

[Gunman]

Up till 1954 Rules of Proof , bore sizes were marked as eg 12 - 13/1 etc rather than .729" - .719".

Although damascus barreled guns were made in Birmingham up until the late 30's after which damascus tubes which came form Belgium were no longer imported .

Thus it can be assumed the gun you are considering was made prior to the 1950's so would not have been marked  .7292 unless it had been later reproofed after 1954 . 

You do come across examples of older barreled actions being finished long after they were made but theses are in very small numbers and names and barrel addresses usualy tell .

[enfieldspares]

One supposed great advantage of damascus (well according to the old books) is that it doesn't "ring" or get as hot as quickly as much as steel barrels. That is to say you get less gun headache from the noise. Which, again, is said the reason why one of the great shooters...Walsingham...had his guns still made with damascus barrels long after Whitworth's fluid pressed steel had become Purdey's go to barrel material.

Once a Norfolk MP too. How different to the ex-lettuce Truss!

Anyway damascus and "ring" coincedentally gets a mention in this below:

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/thomas-de-grey-6th-baron-walsingham

I am disappointed that I've rarely been in that situation on live quarry even though I've experienced it when shooting a solo round of English Skeet .

Edited October 21, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Dave at kelton]

This has been well covered above so if it passes muster just buy and enjoy. I have been using Damascus barrelled guns for decades and never a problem.

[London Best]

Only yesterday I had my 1865 Dickson examined by a prominent and well respected member of the gun trade. The gun bears only a provisional proof mark from that era, with no sign of any definitive marks. He pronounced the Damascus barrels “excellent” with bores so tight he doubted they had ever been bored/lapped and with phenomenal wall thicknesses. Although I have only ever fired the gun with black powder his opinion was that he would happily fire it with any nitro 2 1/2 inch cartridge he could obtain. 
Obviously, if I want to sell it must first be proofed.

[Fil]

On 21/10/2022 at 12:48, Dave at kelton said:

This has been well covered above so if it passes muster just buy and enjoy. I have been using Damascus barrelled guns for decades and never a problem.

Same hear. I regularly shoot my Damascus Clarke on the pheasants. 28 or 30g 6's all day long. It really annoys my o/u mates watching the birds drop out of the sky with "that old brown gun" as they call it.