Hollowpoint ammo

[Dunkield]

So the police have admitted they used hollow points to shoot Jean Charles de Menezes on the tube, they say thay use them to ensure a clean kill on potential suicide bombers.

Is it not the case that they are still aren't allowed to be used in war though? or does that get swept under the carpet in certain situations?

[al4x]

they're probably also safer to use in confined spaces where the risk of ricochets if the bullets exit are higher. Of course safer is relatively speaking and assuming you're not the one being shot

[Guest stiv24]

Am I right in thinking hollow points are expanding rounds?

[Wookie]

Yes.

 

As far as I can remember, the police can use them [against terrorists, contrary to the geneva convention] because they are using them against criminals that have waived their rights and are exempt from the Geneva Convention. I may be muddled about that though.

 

The logic is sound enough... You want to make sure that you get maximum damage and minimum chance of ricochet, use a hollow point.

[sandersj89]

I believe they are also used on planes if flying rangers are on board, again to protect against terroists as the chance of a shoot through is reduced.

 

Jerry

[Dr_Scholl]

Hollow points cause much more damage and have less chance of a ricochet. You should see what a .223 hollow point will do to a head of lettuce. It's **** how the Geneva Convention bans them. Somehow, it's perfectly ok to blow someone's leg off with a landmine, just don't shoot them with a hollow point afterwards.

[Baldrick]

I had lots of discussions about this with some chaps in the Small Arms School Corps (my arms weren't small enough to join that unit...) and aside from the Geneva Convention ********, you have to bear in mind that the any military kit has to pass the squaddy survivability test. Expanding ammunition requires finer tolerance in the moulding process. It's also more expensive to construct. And you don't wan't a damaged round preventing your weapon from chambering and firing, when Osama is shooting back.

 

Odd how you can shoot the Queen's enemies repeatedly with ball rounds (and risk your own skin in the process), but that a muntjac deserves more humane treatment....

[Oly]

As far as I can remember, the police can use them [against terrorists, contrary to the geneva convention] because they are using them against criminals that have waived their rights and are exempt from the Geneva Convention. I may be muddled about that though.

 

If that is correct then that is how the Jean Charles de Menezes council could prosecute the police - as Jean Charles de Menezes was not a criminal (or not for the crime they thought anyway!) and therefore he had not waived his Geneva Convention rights - so they shot him with the wrong type of bullet.

 

QC Oly

[Dunkield]

I know the object is to wound people in combat situations to take 2 or 3 people out of action etc etc

But there has to be situations when a definite, absolute kill needs to be achieved - a sniper with a fleeting glimpse of Osama in his sights for instance, I just wondered if 'special' rounds were kept aside for those sitations?

[Oly]

I know the object is to wound people in combat situations to take 2 or 3 people out of action etc etc

But there has to be situations when a definite, absolute kill needs to be achieved - a sniper with a fleeting glimpse of Osama in his sights for instance, I just wondered if 'special' rounds were kept aside for those sitations?

 

It's called a 50 cal isn't it!?!

[Baldrick]

Cranfield, it doesn't matter whether you are an infantryman or a sniper, special forces or not. You are still bound by the Geneva Convention. Snipers are issued with high quality ball ammunition, while the regular soldier is issued with the bog-standard ball. You don't usually have to shoot a person more than once with a 7.62mm to get the desired result with FMJ ammunition.

[Suffolk shooter]

Cranfield, it doesn't matter whether you are an infantryman or a sniper, special forces or not. You are still bound by the Geneva Convention. Snipers are issued with high quality ball ammunition, while the regular soldier is issued with the bog-standard ball. You don't usually have to shoot a person more than once with a 7.62mm to get the desired result with FMJ ammunition.

 

Strange but I don't recall Crannersposting on this thread. :blink: or is that Stuartp's new nickname (takes cover from Mods)

 

SS

[Dunkield]

Cranfield

Not sure whether that is an insult or a compliment :blink:

 

Thanks for the insight either way Baldrick

[Bazooka Joe]

But there has to be situations when a definite, absolute kill needs to be achieved

 

Hit the nail on the head StuartP, from what I hear a new type of ammo has being designed for the terrorist, ie; the need for a quick kill, so they cannot detonate a bomb.

 

Exactly the reason he was shot in the head several times.

 

BJ.

[Wookie]

seven times in the head if the BBC website is to be believed. From close range. Whilst someone else held him down.

 

That's called making sure.

 

There's a great vid on Youtube about the special ammunition they use through the Barrett Light .50 (well, the Marine Scout Snipers use it) that's light armour piercing/incendiary. Basically, it's got a 7.62mm hard bullet inside a lead case filled with an explosive. The vid shows it punching through a 3" thick manhole cover and making lots of flame on the other side. Ideal for taking out... well, pretty much anything really.

[dustyfox]

well to me if he was running away into a train station just after a terrorist attack I would of shot him. And if they did shoot him seven times in the head it was probably adrenalin that got him.

[vinnie]

it was nt adrenalin that got him....it was lead. i think the officer or officers went way over the top. 7 shots in the head.........one would not need that to drop a bull elephant.

[Baldrick]

It's been a long week, Stuart - sorry for the mix-up! I'm not sure why I assumed I was replying to Cranfield.....

 

There is tungsten armour-piercing ammunition available for .50cal rifles, should you need to punch holes through masonry walls or the sides of lightly-armoured cars. If you're in the position where you need serious armour-piercing and/or anti-personnel capability as a sniper, you are rarely completely on your own. There is usually some form of fire support close by, be it infantry, armour, artillery or air support.

[sidibear]

I do belive that several officers fired at him at the same time rather than one shooting him seven times. fantastic grouping if it was

 

Instant incapacitation used to be center chest / sternum area, that usually stops a human. They can still live for a short while though although the wound is insurvivable.

 

To stop them detonating a bomb though they are trained to go for the spinal cord /neck area as its an instant kill.

 

Hollow points are designed to mushroom on impact thus containing all the energy of the bullet in the target, also as previously stated, it helps to prevent shoot through.

[Zapp]

Quite simple:-

 

Wartime use (ie Iraq/afghan) = expanding rounds illegal under the geneva convention

 

Domestic security (ie stopping terrorists letting bombs off/shooting foreign manual labourers repeatedly in the face, provided either occur in the uk) = expanding rounds permitted, as the geneva convention does not apply. If you wanted to shoot a terrorist with 28g of your own poop it would technically be legal (considering ONLY the geneva convention), as long as it is on home soil and you are government sanctioned (ie an anti terrorist officer) and have a good reason to do so.

 

Oh and by the way, since it was mentioned, the old story about 5.56 being designed to wound rather than kill is a complete myth. 5.56 was adopted for convenience during the cold war, since the expected major player on our side (ie the US, who adopted it because it recoiled less and was lighter, allowing the soldier to carry more rounds) started using it at the same time as a SLR replacement was being looked into, and so we could tap into their ammo supplies if it all went boobies skyward. If the oft quoted "small round/wounded soldier" effect was the real driver, we would have stuck with the 4.85mm round, which is what the SA-80 family of weapons were originally designed to chamber (it was called the EM1 or EM2 in those days I think).

 

And lastly, sidibear, I suggest that your knowledge of what 'they' are trained to do is flawed, since it is a:- pointless to wait for a spine/neck shot if you are trying to stop a man from imminently detonating a bomb (especially using a pistol) and b:- disproved since they clearly had a choice of where to shoot him being only a couple of feet away and went for his head.

 

ZB

[starlight32]

I don't know what all the hype is still going on about it. As far as I am concerned it must have been some mistake for our intelligence to be monitoring him to the extent they did.

 

and at the end of the day why did he run from the authorities if he had nothing to hide?

[steve b]

police use a 64 grain semi jacketed soft point in 5.56 in the H and K G36c if this helps