OUCH

[wymberley]

First things first. I could not have done this without the help of the guys that provided the info' at the Wad and Powder Weight thread. Thank you all once again.

Yep, been there - Findhorn in particular with a sub 7lb AyA Yeoman, 26" barrels and beavertail fore-end and Eley 2&3/4" 1&1/2 oz magnums.

This has nothing to do with our coastal 'fowlers - they know what they're doing - but is aimed at the increasing use of steel shot for game - mainly driven game and high pheasant in particular.

It has long been considered that an ideal weight of gun to cartridge load ratio is 96 to one -  6 lb gun and 1 oz shot. Our more traditional load equates to 6&1/2 lb gun and 1&1/16 oz shot. The latter example gives a (comfortable) recoil velocity/energy of 14.8 ft/sec and 22.2 ftlbs when fired at 1250 ft/sec. Push that load out of the front at 1300 ft/sec and backwards you now get 15.4 ft/sec and 24.03 ftlbs. This equates to our traditionally held sensible limit for continuous shooting. Pushing a 1&1/8 oz load out of the same gun at 1400 ft/ec will give you 17.9 ft/sec and 32.3 ftlbs at the back. Not ideal. Increasing the weight of the gun to 7.5 lbs eases things, but you need to go to 8 lbs for a more comfortable 14.5 ft/sec and 26.2 ftlbs.

Our coastal 'fowlers will fire off the odd 1&1/2 oz load of steel with their 'fowling piece. It now seems that the makers consider it has become necessary for the driven bird shooters to fire 1&1/4 oz through their game guns with a fair old rate of fire. Obviously, velocity matters with steel so it has been decided that 1450 ft/sec is necessary up front. This out back with an 8 lb gun will give a recoil value of 16.6 ft/sec and 34.3 ftlbs. See the Post title! If you're going to use your 7lb OU, you do the maths, I don't want to know.

One of the four initial criteria for the introduction of NTS was that it is safe to use. Does that include the safety of the end user? What's your 10 year old going to shoot? I can't help but think that as the Government are going to be responsible for the legislated introduction of NTS, our representative organisations make sure that It ensures that the potential personal injury implications are highlighted because of the higher recoil values are greater than those of lead for a given down range energy level.

The figures given are non material specific - simply load (including all ejecta) and gun weights and velocities. Also, they are generic and specific powder types and weights, wads,etc, etc used in any one cartridge are required for any specific cartridge calculation.

     

Edited March 10, 2023 by wymberley

[Walker570]

Yup, simple answer buy a 410 and shoot around 19g of bismuth which will do all you need out to 45yrds if you do your bit and put it in ther pattern.

See my item on damaged game meat a few days ago where I have found more and more pheasants blown up with these crazy loads and the likes of Carrie et al pronouncing that this is what you MUST shoot.

[Gas seal]

Hi yes wild fowlers will use magnum steel cartridges with large pellets . The American shooters are loading a lighter and faster steel load. I have loaded fast lighter load of steel l used csb0 and AO powder I found this gave me less recoil . In the USA they call it TTT time to target. Recoil will be the next thing for the manufacturers using different powder and primer, fiocchi and Cheddite now have a hotter primer . Ballistic products in USA have done testing on the primers . Hull cartridges make 20gauge three inch steel cartridges 28 grams of shot for pheasant shooters with a bio type wad. Cartridges for a ten year old would be 410 or 28gauge bismuth, expensive to learn with, or hand load steel cartridges for them. It’s not just the recoil on any magnum cartridges in a lighter gun it’s the (vibration) on the face. I would have thought shooting high pheasants would be with a heavier gun with a longer  barrel and a heavy lead cartridges. There are plenty of steel cartridges to choose from I would just select one to suit the gun. 

 

[PeterHenry]

Re beginner's / young shots - I've found Lyalvale's eco earth wad 30g '5's very soft on the shoulder through a light side by side. I cant really see the need to be teaching beginner's to shoot high birds - although, perhaps a beneficial aspect of a lead ban would be the presentation of more birds at killable heights? We all have our bad days, but - opening myself to criticism - I've read about (not witnessed) drives where pepole are averaging 8 shots a bird or more. That said, I do appreciate this is straying farm from the original point of the post.

Also - Musto make an excellent recoil pad that works on a molecular (?) level to soak up recoil by locking together. I have one and can recomend it.

[wymberley]

16 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Re beginner's / young shots - I've found Lyalvale's eco earth wad 30g '5's very soft on the shoulder through a light side by side. I cant really see the need to be teaching beginner's to shoot high birds - although, perhaps a beneficial aspect of a lead ban would be the presentation of more birds at killable heights? We all have our bad days, but - opening myself to criticism - I've read about (not witnessed) drives where pepole are averaging 8 shots a bird or more. That said, I do appreciate this is straying farm from the original point of the post.

Also - Musto make an excellent recoil pad that works on a molecular (?) level to soak up recoil by locking together. I have one and can recomend it.

"I do appreciate this is straying farm from the original point of the post."

Are you quite sure about that?

[PeterHenry]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

"I do appreciate this is straying farm from the original point of the post."

Are you quite sure about that?

Honsestly, I thought it was more about recoil than range, but as your the op, I'm more than happy to abide by the farm boundaries as laid out by yourself

*and upon re reading, you did point that out in paragraph 3 - so my bad

Edited March 10, 2023 by PeterHenry

[wymberley]

13 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Honsestly, I thought it was more about recoil than range, but as your the op, I'm more than happy to abide by the farm boundaries as laid out by yourself

*and upon re reading, you did point that out in paragraph 3 - so my bad

Not at all. Only a couple of weeks ago the severely limited advantage of an extra 150 ft/sec increase at the muzzle had down range where it counts was being discussed - a fair old thump for very little real benefit

[London Best]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Not at all. Only a couple of weeks ago the severely limited advantage of an extra 150 ft/sec increase at the muzzle had down range where it counts was being discussed - a fair old thump for very little real benefit

Which is probably why velocities have been around 1250 FPS for around 130 years?

[Smudger687]

Many such options for recoil mitigation:

1. Get a heavier gun as mentioned.

2. Invest in better recoil reduction systems - eg slip on recoil pads, kick-eez pads etc

3. Abandon the mistaken desire to stick with steel 4's for all shooting and bump it up to size 3's or even 2's.

4. Abandon the likewise mistaken idea that steel is only compatible with half choke - steel responds well to tighter choking, it just requires more robust chokes to deal with it. 

The reason I mention points 3 and 4 in the context of recoil management is because when shooters hamstring themselves by sticking with 4's and half choke, the only way in which you can extend range/get a more potent load is to bump up the payload and velocity. Before you know it you get shooters blasting high velocity 3 inchers out of quarter and half chokes wondering why nothing drops and they have a headache. 

My advice would be to use a 2.75 inch shell of 3's or 2's. Make sure that they are a true size 3 or 2 by cutting a shell open and measuring the diameter of the pellets. 

Then put these shells through a 5/8, 3/4 or full choke from a manufacturer that says that it is safe to do so - trulock, muller and briley chokes are three manufacturers that spring to mind.

Pattern this combination at various measured ranges out to 50 yards. Chances are you will quickly realise that you will ruin the day of anything you put in that pattern, and that the big 3 inch shells are largely unnecessary. 

 

[joejoe]

Perhaps a semi auto would help with the recoil.