Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 4 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I have some spaghetti to knit, it will be a far better use of my time Heres another interesting study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935116309458 A multiple linear regression analysis (containing the covariates sex, age, hunting, wine drinking, game meat consumption, tobacco smoking, shooting range, and occupational exposure) found an association with hunting (Pb-blood almost double in hunters) and wine drinking (40% higher in drinkers) but not with consumption of game meat or other parameters. Whether the higher Pb-blood level was due to inhalation of lead fumes while shooting with lead ammunition, to handling lead ammunition or both could not be ascertained. I dont think anyone doubts that there a few birds that suffer death or ill health due to lead shot ingestion, although we cant put a number on it, or any real context, as no one can find these birds to examine them or decide what actually killed them. Like I said, why dont we do a study on some chicks, in a controlled environment , with some lead 'minefields' around them ? But even so , the numbers , whatever they are, pale into insignificance when other deadly factors are introduced, fox, raptor, badger and domestic cat predation, must account for 100s of millions of wild birds every year. Wind farms and game hunting, millions more... Its a peculiar argument to seek to control something, that perhaps accounts for what could be a few thousand lead poisonings , against a backdrop of game shooting where countless birds are shot , the justification of which is 'We are going to eat them all' I dont believe it , the antis dont believe it, the general public wont believe, and most of all Conor , you dont believe it either. I appreciate you don't support the voluntary transition. Its your choice. I believe we need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting for the benefit of the birds. Not much more to be said given that you don't wish to listen to the podcast nor speak on the phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 46 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I have some spaghetti to knit, it will be a far better use of my time Heres another interesting study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935116309458 A multiple linear regression analysis (containing the covariates sex, age, hunting, wine drinking, game meat consumption, tobacco smoking, shooting range, and occupational exposure) found an association with hunting (Pb-blood almost double in hunters) and wine drinking (40% higher in drinkers) but not with consumption of game meat or other parameters. Whether the higher Pb-blood level was due to inhalation of lead fumes while shooting with lead ammunition, to handling lead ammunition or both could not be ascertained. I dont think anyone doubts that there a few birds that suffer death or ill health due to lead shot ingestion, although we cant put a number on it, or any real context, as no one can find these birds to examine them or decide what actually killed them. Like I said, why dont we do a study on some chicks, in a controlled environment , with some lead 'minefields' around them ? But even so , the numbers , whatever they are, pale into insignificance when other deadly factors are introduced, fox, raptor, badger and domestic cat predation, must account for 100s of millions of wild birds every year. Wind farms and game hunting, millions more... Its a peculiar argument to seek to control something, that perhaps accounts for what could be a few thousand lead poisonings , against a backdrop of game shooting where countless birds are shot , the justification of which is 'We are going to eat them all' I dont believe it , the antis dont believe it, the general public wont believe, and most of all Conor , you dont believe it either. Well said 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I appreciate you don't support the voluntary transition. Its your choice. I believe we need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting for the benefit of the birds. Not much more to be said given that you don't wish to listen to the podcast nor speak on the phone. I dont support the 'voluntary' transition , because it wont be voluntary for long, plus the point of it, as you keep reminding us, is for the 'benefit of the birds' Some of these birds have been bred to be shot, some may even end up on the table, and while you could never put a figure on how many are poisoned , you could put a rough figure on how many are laid down for game shoots of all sizes. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-021-01508-z#:~:text=By sharing the mean estimate,5.6–12.5 million) and 2.6 Larger shoots From the SSBS2017 classification of shoot sizes and based on APHAPR2020 release data, 313 large shoots make up only < 9% of UK shoots, yet they appear to release 64% of the birds. In the GOPSOC 2017, it is reported of the distribution of their data that “just over 7% of shoots accounted for half of the total number of birds put down and shot”. How can you plead for the lives of a fraction of a percentage point , while encouraging the 'healthy market for game meat' that BASC has invested time, a considerable amount of members money, and the future of shooting with lead on ? Its blatant hypocrisy, and while I dont criticise others for whatever they want to do with their guns and time, the general public will, and does. The idea that some birds are harmed by ingesting lead shot = BAD , but shooting them for sport/food = GOOD ,wont make sense to most people who dont shoot, and we live in a world these days where people get offended for the most simplistic reasons... As Ive said, Packham et all , have these people as a captive audience, they can out finance us easily, they have the numbers, we cannot win in the long run. But what we dont need is BASC ect holding aloft the 'Peace in our time' note and hoping appeasement will win the day. We need to make a stand, this is why I asked about the fighting fund in another thread, and whether BASC was going to use it to fight , or just roll over. Which if Im not mistaken, it has been doing since 2020. Edited April 23 by Rewulf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 If this lead ban thing or as much as it’s called ‘a voluntary transition’ is only for live quarry AND NOT FOR CLAY SHOOTING, is this why BASC has got involved in it and CPSA hasn’t? Because it my eyes, no news (From CPSA) is good news, and BASC seem to be poking and prodding at the subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 48 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I dont support the 'voluntary' transition , because it wont be voluntary for long, plus the point of it, as you keep reminding us, is for the 'benefit of the birds' Some of these birds have been bred to be shot, some may even end up on the table, and while you could never put a figure on how many are poisoned , you could put a rough figure on how many are laid down for game shoots of all sizes. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-021-01508-z#:~:text=By sharing the mean estimate,5.6–12.5 million) and 2.6 Larger shoots From the SSBS2017 classification of shoot sizes and based on APHAPR2020 release data, 313 large shoots make up only < 9% of UK shoots, yet they appear to release 64% of the birds. In the GOPSOC 2017, it is reported of the distribution of their data that “just over 7% of shoots accounted for half of the total number of birds put down and shot”. How can you plead for the lives of a fraction of a percentage point , while encouraging the 'healthy market for game meat' that BASC has invested time, a considerable amount of members money, and the future of shooting with lead on ? Its blatant hypocrisy, and while I dont criticise others for whatever they want to do with their guns and time, the general public will, and does. The idea that some birds are harmed by ingesting lead shot = BAD , but shooting them for sport/food = GOOD ,wont make sense to most people who dont shoot, and we live in a world these days where people get offended for the most simplistic reasons... As Ive said, Packham et all , have these people as a captive audience, they can out finance us easily, they have the numbers, we cannot win in the long run. But what we dont need is BASC ect holding aloft the 'Peace in our time' note and hoping appeasement will win the day. We need to make a stand, this is why I asked about the fighting fund in another thread, and whether BASC was going to use it to fight , or just roll over. Which if Im not mistaken, it has been doing since 2020. To answer your question it's about doing the right thing and the transition so far has been a success, given the challenges faced, such as the war in Ukraine and Covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Whilst BASC might think a voluntary ban on lead is fine, HSE are looking at lead shot - full stop, which does include clay shooting. Few share BASC's rose tinted view and suspect that non shooters will lump game and clay shooting together and want to ban lead in both cases. They would argue that one of the main shooting organisations thinks lead is bad and they agree. Some might claim that the voluntary transition to non lead has been a success. That is delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 5 minutes ago, BobbyH said: If this lead ban thing or as much as it’s called ‘a voluntary transition’ is only for live quarry AND NOT FOR CLAY SHOOTING, is this why BASC has got involved in it and CPSA hasn’t? Because it my eyes, no news (From CPSA) is good news, and BASC seem to be poking and prodding at the subject? Yes, it's only for live quarry shooting with lead shot using shotguns and supported by organisations such as BASC, CA, GWCT, NGO and so on and its a voluntary move so its your choice what to do. https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2020/february/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyH Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Yes, it's only for live quarry shooting with lead shot using shotguns and supported by organisations such as BASC, CA, GWCT, NGO and so on and its a voluntary move so its your choice what to do. https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2020/february/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/ It’s my choice what I do!? Just to be clear I wasn’t giving aggro, I was just asking as I’m unsure of the future of the use of lead in the sport of clay shooting which I love. Glad I signed up to the right organisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 3 minutes ago, BobbyH said: It’s my choice what I do!? Just to be clear I wasn’t giving aggro, I was just asking as I’m unsure of the future of the use of lead in the sport of clay shooting which I love. Glad I signed up to the right organisation. Thanks, I didn't think you were giving aggro, I was just clarifying in response to your query that the voluntary transition is not a ban, it's a voluntary initiative - so very much your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 40 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: To answer your question it's about doing the right thing and the transition so far has been a success, given the challenges faced, such as the war in Ukraine and Covid. The 'right thing' by who ? The birds, or your members, who pay your wages ? Or people who shoot in general, who WILL be affected by this ridiculous farce ? And no Conor , its not been a success, how you could make that statement is beyond belief. 35 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Yes, it's only for live quarry shooting with lead shot using shotguns and supported by organisations such as BASC, CA, GWCT, NGO and so on and its a voluntary move so its your choice what to do. As long as you only use lead shot at clay grounds, because no one would ever dream of using cheap clay cartridges to shoot live quarry Oh and BASC say itll be fine, the HSE wont ban clay loads, as long as the ground pick up all the spent lead shot afterwards... Give me strength 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Rewulf - a blind man can see you are correct. You just need some of those rose tinted BASC glasses and you can be cured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Yes, it's only for live quarry shooting with lead shot using shotguns and supported by organisations such as BASC, CA, GWCT, NGO and so on and its a voluntary move so its your choice what to do. https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2020/february/a-joint-statement-on-the-future-of-shotgun-ammunition-for-live-quarry-shooting/ Ok I understand that it’s voluntary transition now hears the quandary If steel is so good why don’t clay shooters use it ? surely you want the best performing cartridges for shooting game birds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 23 minutes ago, Rewulf said: The 'right thing' by who ? The birds, or your members, who pay your wages ? Or people who shoot in general, who WILL be affected by this ridiculous farce ? In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 24 minutes ago, Rewulf said: And no Conor , its not been a success, how you could make that statement is beyond belief. Well, that is exactly what we have stated to the HSE in our response to last year's consultation. And it struck me that those putting down the voluntary transition online are some UK-based academics, Wild Justice.....and a handful of anonymous posters on PW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad. I notice you didnt mention your membership, or shooters across the board... 8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Well, that is exactly what we have stated to the HSE in our response to last year's consultation. And it struck me that those putting down the voluntary transition online are some UK-based academics, Wild Justice.....and a handful of anonymous posters on PW. Ah , I see where youre going here, if you dont support BASCs 'transition' that they just decided on without consultation , you are antis , the 'enemy' If youre not with us , youre against us mentality ? Sound strategy from BASC , alienate the vast majority of the UK shooters who want to continue using lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 16 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Ok I understand that it’s voluntary transition now hears the quandary If steel is so good why don’t clay shooters use it ? surely you want the best performing cartridges for shooting game birds The voluntary transition is for live quarry shooting. As awareness grows about steel shot effectiveness then perhaps more clay shooters will use it subject to club rules etc. Maybe something that @BobbyHcould comment on or ask the CPSA about? There are plenty of YouTube videos out there of people shooting clays with steel. With that in mind do listen to the podcast from the OP - lots of insights around correct patterning. 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I notice you didnt mention your membership, or shooters across the board... Ah , I see where youre going here, if you dont support BASCs 'transition' that they just decided on without consultation , you are antis , the 'enemy' If youre not with us , youre against us mentality ? Sound strategy from BASC , alienate the vast majority of the UK shooters who want to continue using lead Actually there is a big difference between having a personal view and going onto a public forum posting what is being posted by a few on here about the voluntary transition. The only online content I am seeing is from a handful of PW members and the academics and Wild Justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 10 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: The voluntary transition is for live quarry shooting. As awareness grows about steel shot effectiveness then perhaps more clay shooters will use it subject to club rules etc. Maybe something that @BobbyHcould comment on or ask the CPSA about? There are plenty of YouTube videos out there of people shooting clays with steel. With that in mind do listen to the podcast from the OP - lots of insights around correct patterning. Actually there is a big difference between having a personal view and going onto a public forum posting what is being posted by a few on here about the voluntary transition. The only online content I am seeing is from a handful of PW members and the academics and Wild Justice. I was trying to be subtle about the podcast unless it has subtitles it’s useless to me and many others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 7 minutes ago, Old farrier said: I was trying to be subtle about the podcast unless it has subtitles it’s useless to me and many others I don't understand. I had no problem listening to it. Here it is again: https://theshoothubpodcast.podbean.com/e/lead-shot-latest/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Just now, Conor O'Gorman said: I don't understand. I had no problem listening to it. Here it is again: https://theshoothubpodcast.podbean.com/e/lead-shot-latest/ Well you’re probably not as deaf as I am 🙄🙄🙄🙄 along with many other shooting folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Actually there is a big difference between having a personal view and going onto a public forum posting what is being posted by a few on here about the voluntary transition. The only online content I am seeing is from a handful of PW members and the academics and Wild Justice. Seriously , a handful ? There are far more people on here , and on other forums , criticising BASCs transition, than there are supporting it, but you at BASC live in this bubble where EVERYONES on board with it Why dont you do a membership poll at BASC , I dare you. Trying to compare the mindset of antis , with dedicated shooters and field sports enthusiasts is pretty laughable, as are your attempts to justify BASCs position. You arent trying to save shooting, youre trying to preserve BASC , badly. You arent the voice of shooting , because you dont listen to what your members, or anyone else who shoots, wants, which is for BASC to fight against the encroaching restrictions. Not once have you acknowledged there may be a problem with BASC s strategy in this, when its clear you can blow holes in the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 53 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Well you’re probably not as deaf as I am 🙄🙄🙄🙄 along with many other shooting folks Plug in ear phones might help? Works for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 52 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Seriously , a handful ? There are far more people on here , and on other forums , criticising BASCs transition, than there are supporting it, but you at BASC live in this bubble where EVERYONES on board with it Why dont you do a membership poll at BASC , I dare you. Yes, a handful, it is clear as day. Also a curious thing the handful have in common - the handful do not read or listen to updates, and refuse to engage in phone calls. BASC has shared the podcast on Facebook and Twitter open to anyone to read and comment. No complaints. BASC did a survey about the transition earlier this year - did you complete the survey? Please provide links to these other forums you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamch Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 I see the usual old farts have hijacked this thread ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Yes, a handful, it is clear as day. Also a curious thing the handful have in common - the handful do not read or listen to updates, and refuse to engage in phone calls. Got ya, if you dont listen to BASC updates or podcasts (which I do) youre an anti , glad you cleared that up for us (handful) 17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Please provide links to these other forums you mention. You get a regular beating on the SD , probably a worse crowd than on PW TBH 😄 No doubt you wont recall that though ? Just now, grahamch said: I see the usual old farts have hijacked this thread ....... Dont be so hard on yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 45 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Plug in ear phones might help? Works for me! Reading is my preferred choice I can’t put up with the whistling and cracking 40 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Yes, a handful, it is clear as day. Also a curious thing the handful have in common - the handful do not read or listen to updates, and refuse to engage in phone calls. BASC has shared the podcast on Facebook and Twitter open to anyone to read and comment. No complaints. BASC did a survey about the transition earlier this year - did you complete the survey? Please provide links to these other forums you mention. I far prefer to engage face to face over a cup of tea with cake far more gentlemanly than a telephone call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.