BASC helps deliver pilot course for FEOs - to be rolled out to all FEOs over the next 2 years.

[Conor O'Gorman]

The course was run earlier in September at Bisley Shooting Ground under the auspices of the British Shooting Sports Council, the umbrella body for UK shooting organisations. 

During the course, presentations were given on a wide range of shooting activities, with BASC covering the use of both shotguns and rifles in live quarry shooting. There was also a presentation from the chairman of a Home Office-approved shooting club on the responsibilities of club committees. Following lunch, the FEOs were given the opportunity to try their hand at both clay pigeon and rifle shooting.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-delivers-more-training-for-police-firearms-enquiry-officers/ 

The course is to be rolled out to all FEOs in the UK over the next two years, helping to build strong partnerships between firearms licensing departments and the shooting community.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-new-training-programme-for-firearms-enquiry-officers/

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Great, I hope this is used by ALL of the various FEO Departments.

[armsid]

Which force did not turn up at the meeting?

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 hours ago, armsid said:

Which force did not turn up at the meeting?

The course is to be rolled out to all FEOs in the UK over the next two years. Information about the pilot training course is here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-delivers-more-training-for-police-firearms-enquiry-officers/ 

[HantsRob]

Conor, a great news story, but content poor.

• Who's mandating all FEO's get BASC training?
• Is this a representation from every force, or literally every FEO where attendance allows?
• Who is funding the BASC courses?
• Is this home office approved?
• Have college of policing ratified and sanctioned the content of the BASC course?
• What is the content of the course? (familiarisation is great, but what is being standardised?)

I am unsure how BASC have achieved this, and frankly I think it is a positive to get more transparency and training for FEOs so it is a national standard. I am just not sure why/how BASC are a training lead on this? I am guessing this is purely a familiarisation course rather than FEO training. Based on the post though, this is purely a course to show some guns, practical uses, and have a go? 

I appreciate this may help understand their customers more. I guess I just am data driven, and from the description would question the efficacy of the course, and ROI.

[Newbie to this]

16 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Who is funding the BASC courses?

Members 

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Conor, a great news story, but content poor.

• Who's mandating all FEO's get BASC training?
• Is this a representation from every force, or literally every FEO where attendance allows?
• Who is funding the BASC courses?
• Is this home office approved?
• Have college of policing ratified and sanctioned the content of the BASC course?
• What is the content of the course? (familiarisation is great, but what is being standardised?)

I am unsure how BASC have achieved this, and frankly I think it is a positive to get more transparency and training for FEOs so it is a national standard. I am just not sure why/how BASC are a training lead on this? I am guessing this is purely a familiarisation course rather than FEO training. Based on the post though, this is purely a course to show some guns, practical uses, and have a go? 

I appreciate this may help understand their customers more. I guess I just am data driven, and from the description would question the efficacy of the course, and ROI.

The second link in the OP takes you to the origins of the course and it is available on College of Policing website. 

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The second link in the OP takes you to the origins of the course and it is available on College of Policing website. 

Ok, that doesn't answer anything apart from "you show the FEOs disciplines and handling, and a bit of play", I am not sure how that helps with achieving consistent good practice across the forces?

A link to COP site, doesn't ratify the BASC post as COP endorsed or how it will change the future. I am very aware of the remit of COP, and I don't see how this fits into their training plans.

I really am not slating it, any awareness is good, but I don't see how them different disciplines and safe handling and going for a shoot is going to achieve any consistent good practices for all the faults new and existing shooters are experiencing?

[Conor O'Gorman]

15 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Ok, that doesn't answer anything apart from "you show the FEOs disciplines and handling, and a bit of play", I am not sure how that helps with achieving consistent good practice across the forces?

A link to COP site, doesn't ratify the BASC post as COP endorsed or how it will change the future. I am very aware of the remit of COP, and I don't see how this fits into their training plans.

I really am not slating it, any awareness is good, but I don't see how them different disciplines and safe handling and going for a shoot is going to achieve any consistent good practices for all the faults new and existing shooters are experiencing?

You have lost me I am afraid, it's a College of Policing course, but I have passed your qs onto Martin Parker. He is back next week and if he can shed any light on what you are on about I will post an update.

[HantsRob]

On 27/09/2024 at 18:26, Conor O'Gorman said:

You have lost me I am afraid, it's a College of Policing course, but I have passed your qs onto Martin Parker. He is back next week and if he can shed any light on what you are on about I will post an update.

CoP course run by BASC is, to me, a more exciting highlight. This would show more that they endorsed it, helped write and script it with you ,and would give far more weight to it all.

I am unsure why the document is written that it is BASC led, rather than BASC used to deliver a CoP course. It may be semantics, I guess BASC want to look in better light. But, I think it's a missed trick, BASC selected to help create and run courses for FEOs for me would be better promotion but with endorsement of CoP.

May just be my lens on it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

CoP course run by BASC is, to me, a more exciting highlight. This would show more that they endorsed it, helped write and script it with you ,and would give far more weight to it all.

I am unsure why the document is written that it is BASC led, rather than BASC used to deliver a CoP course. It may be semantics, I guess BASC want to look in better light. But, I think it's a missed trick, BASC selected to help create and run courses for FEOs for me would be better promotion but with endorsement of CoP.

May just be my lens on it.

Do civilians that make up the vast majority of Firearms Licensing Posts have access to the CoP?

[HantsRob]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do civilians that make up the vast majority of Firearms Licensing Posts have access to the CoP?

Simply, yes.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Thank you for confirming that, let's hope there is a good take up.

[HantsRob]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Thank you for confirming that, let's hope there is a good take up.

Absolutely. I am still skeptical about the content, but it sounds like an intro into shooting, rather than actually addressing the issues we all face.

Lets hope if successful it has a second level and beyond for more practical teaching.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Absolutely. I am still skeptical about the content, but it sounds like an intro into shooting, rather than actually addressing the issues we all face.

Lets hope if successful it has a second level and beyond for more practical teaching.

Yes, it may well start to relieve the poor performance.

[armsid]

Hants Rob good post but until the guidance is made statutory and fully computerised we will still have issues between differing forces interpretation of the guidance  BASC should either run the course along with other orgs. or write the course and oversee it,  We had the same problems with MOTtesting nothing was set in stone what passed at A failed atB when it wentout of Gov hands directly and became statutory computerised yearly assessments it improved quality all sung from the same hymn sheet and what you could pass or fail was on the screen and no way to fail what you wanted to This is a good example of how to improve the system .A company/dept. at arms length from H O

[HantsRob]

20 hours ago, armsid said:

Hants Rob good post but until the guidance is made statutory and fully computerised we will still have issues between differing forces interpretation of the guidance  BASC should either run the course along with other orgs. or write the course and oversee it,  We had the same problems with MOTtesting nothing was set in stone what passed at A failed atB when it wentout of Gov hands directly and became statutory computerised yearly assessments it improved quality all sung from the same hymn sheet and what you could pass or fail was on the screen and no way to fail what you wanted to This is a good example of how to improve the system .A company/dept. at arms length from H O

I'd be very happy for guidance to stop being guidance and being a ratified framework where all forces (sorry, constabularies) are following the same framework. Statute will help, although I am not sure what you mean by fully computerised? What elements are you suggesting isn't? That's not being combative, the only part I am aware of is table 2, but you still need to follow up electronically.

Regardless, I would be very happy if an org such as BASC write and maintain and deliver courses that are signed off and ratified by CoP. The issue I think is that CoP will want it on "CoP Learn" as e-learning to futureproof and deliver to the turnover of FEO staff. Maybe they already have material, but it needs to comply to ensure everyone is treated fairly and the same. If BASC can do a course, the issue is that it needs to be run ad infinitum, and it needs to move to an online training platform where it's saved and repeatable to prevent slip in the future.

I am not precious if it is BASC, CPSA etc, but it needs to be without political sway or influence. That's to say there needs to be awareness (BASC can do this brilliantly), but then policy and procedure on how to issue new grants, renewals, variations etc will be an internal thing. That's not to say organisations can't provide input, but that shouldn't be dictated by a shooting organisation alone.

[armsid]

Hants Rob thanks for reply. Regarding computerisation i tried to say that the whole history is recorded and cannot be removed plus in this case (MOT) the results can be seen by VOSA and if any discrepancies detected can be sorted out and the tester pulled up. The Elearning is good but we as mot testers have to do 30 q.s every year and obtain 80% or fail and cannot test till this mark is gained.

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 27/09/2024 at 09:34, HantsRob said:

Conor, a great news story, but content poor.

• Who's mandating all FEO's get BASC training?
• Is this a representation from every force, or literally every FEO where attendance allows?
• Who is funding the BASC courses?
• Is this home office approved?
• Have college of policing ratified and sanctioned the content of the BASC course?
• What is the content of the course? (familiarisation is great, but what is being standardised?)

I am unsure how BASC have achieved this, and frankly I think it is a positive to get more transparency and training for FEOs so it is a national standard. I am just not sure why/how BASC are a training lead on this? I am guessing this is purely a familiarisation course rather than FEO training. Based on the post though, this is purely a course to show some guns, practical uses, and have a go? 

I appreciate this may help understand their customers more. I guess I just am data driven, and from the description would question the efficacy of the course, and ROI.

Feedback from Martin as follows:

• Who's mandating all FEO's get BASC training? The training is by BSSC. BASC are one of the organisations doing the training. It is mandated by College of Policing and NPCC.
• Is this a representation from every force, or literally every FEO where attendance allows? All FEOs to attend in the next two years. The BSSC input is only a part of a much wider training package.
• Who is funding the BASC courses? BASC will fund any part of training for FEOs as it is in our members’ interest that FEOs are given the most comprehensive training possible.
• Is this home office approved? Yes
• Have college of policing ratified and sanctioned the content of the BASC course? When finalised, CoP will sign-off the BSSC package.
• What is the content of the course? (familiarisation is great, but what is being standardised?) Still being worked on, but knowledge of common types of firearms used in all forms of shooting, calibres suitable, safe handling, different disciplines, responsibilities of HO clubs and the opportunity to shoot a shotgun and rifle.

We are not the training lead, BSSC is. We are a key partner.

Edited October 1 by Conor O'Gorman

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A good start, let's hope it is taken up and used to the good of both sides.

[HantsRob]

14 hours ago, armsid said:

Hants Rob thanks for reply. Regarding computerisation i tried to say that the whole history is recorded and cannot be removed plus in this case (MOT) the results can be seen by VOSA and if any discrepancies detected can be sorted out and the tester pulled up. The Elearning is good but we as mot testers have to do 30 q.s every year and obtain 80% or fail and cannot test till this mark is gained.

It's also slightly worrying when MOT testers only need to get 80% of an MOT correct! 
Partially tongue in cheek, I appreciate most testers know when a car is fundamentally unsafe.

I like the idea of a blockchain style, where the history is available!

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Feedback from Martin as follows:

• Who's mandating all FEO's get BASC training? The training is by BSSC. BASC are one of the organisations doing the training. It is mandated by College of Policing and NPCC.
• Is this a representation from every force, or literally every FEO where attendance allows? All FEOs to attend in the next two years. The BSSC input is only a part of a much wider training package.
• Who is funding the BASC courses? BASC will fund any part of training for FEOs as it is in our members’ interest that FEOs are given the most comprehensive training possible.
• Is this home office approved? Yes
• Have college of policing ratified and sanctioned the content of the BASC course? When finalised, CoP will sign-off the BSSC package.
• What is the content of the course? (familiarisation is great, but what is being standardised?) Still being worked on, but knowledge of common types of firearms used in all forms of shooting, calibres suitable, safe handling, different disciplines, responsibilities of HO clubs and the opportunity to shoot a shotgun and rifle.

We are not the training lead, BSSC is. We are a key partner.

That's actually fantastic.

Firstly, thankyou for the enquiry
Secondly, thankyou to your colleague also
Finally, I genuinely hope that this drives change as a key partner, and allows BSSC, CoP etc all to drive change, and ensure a smoother, faster, and better service for end users.

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 hours ago, HantsRob said:

That's actually fantastic.

Firstly, thankyou for the enquiry
Secondly, thankyou to your colleague also
Finally, I genuinely hope that this drives change as a key partner, and allows BSSC, CoP etc all to drive change, and ensure a smoother, faster, and better service for end users.

That's great and have passed your comments back to Martin. The press release content was very well received but in light of your questions I think we could do more on this (tied in with the Police Scotland FEO training update) and we may do an article or two that goes into more detail than the press release. 

Edited October 1 by Conor O'Gorman

[HantsRob]

19 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's great and have passed your comments back to Martin. The press release content was very well received but in light of your questions I think we could do more on this (tied in with the Police Scotland FEO training update) and we may do an article or two that goes into more detail than the press release. 

That would be a really great read. I think sometimes less is more, and sometimes more is less.

The good news story isn't "BASC did all this", it's actually "CoP are doing great work with BSSC, of which BASC has been selected as a training partner in many aspects" and having more detail. 
From my narrow view it's an amazing news story and I think you have actually sold BASC short of their role and how impactful this could be for the future of FEOs and helping licencing.

[Smudger687]

To be frank, the fact that FEO's need to be familiarised with firearms is embarrassing.

That a person that has never even shot clays gets to decide what guns I can own, what I can do with those guns, and where I can use them, is sufficient justification for the complete removal of the good reason requirement. Again, I really think BASC needs to be doing more to try and get rid of it. 

[Old farrier]

23 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

To be frank, the fact that FEO's need to be familiarised with firearms is embarrassing.

That a person that has never even shot clays gets to decide what guns I can own, what I can do with those guns, and where I can use them, is sufficient justification for the complete removal of the good reason requirement. Again, I really think BASC needs to be doing more to try and get rid of it. 

Totally understand 

personally think a flo should have a long history of sporting gun shooting before being considered for the position 

All disciplines in the clay ground and ascertained at minimum cpsa level of coach/ safety officer 

experienced game shooting at some point definitely done some vermin and pigeon shooting with a shotgun 

then spent time on the range with small bore and larger centre fire rifles before moving on to shoot vermin and then obviously pass a level 1 and 2 deer stalking course and shoot deer 

this way you should have someone with a insight into the job and be understanding of the hoops that are being put there for us to jump through 

im sure they would make the best flo in the future 

just my thoughts 

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