webber Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Spot on. However most customers are only interested in the financial savings. It is a pitty, but people will only start to think about the enviroment when its too late! webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddeer 40 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Webber, I think your the right person to ask, as I'm driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.2 on LPG and fuel I never took it to England because I hardly find a place to tank LPG and price of fuel is crazy. From my contact in England I heared a time ago there is now a fuel station near him that provides LPG. But what connection is it, as for Belgium, Holland and France it are completely different connections. Is it possible to mail a picture of a connection tool or some info where to get it. Thanks in advance, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 reddeer40 Several years ago amidst rumours that we were going to have a Euro autogas connection, Britain dumped its own connection and adopted the Dutch fitting. Therefore if you have previously taken your vehicle to Holland, you will have no problem in the UK. However donot despare, as adaptors are available, but you would need to purchase your own, as UK code of practice prevents filling stations from using adaptors, but you can! Hope that this helps. If you still need a picture let me know, for I shall have to try hard; my computer skills are quite limited. With regard to Autogas filling stations. In 1998, Britain had only 113 Autogas filling sites left. My company owned one of them. However Britain now has more Autogas filling stations per head of population, or vehicles, than any other country in Europe. If you go to www.lpga.co.uk and follow the prompts for autogas, you will be able to access a list by county of Autogas filling stations. Beware, many are only open normal business hours, but most motorway services now have LPG, albeit at a higher price of around 40 pence per litre. Regards webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddeer 40 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Webber, many thanks, i have a connection tool for Holland, so it would not be a problem. Maybe I have to tank only one time, as I have a citerne of 140 liters ( is good for 600 kms). Distance from Belgium to Uppingham (with ferry Calais - Dover) is around 500 km. Thanks again, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Webber I know that you have a soft spot for LPG and I seriously considered converting my V6 GV recently but have just traded it in for a 1.6 petrol Fiesta zetec s which should give me 38-40 to the gallon. It broke my heart but I was only using it to drive the 34 miles to work and back daily and putting in nearly 200 quids worth of petrol per month! My question is... If Gas conversion ultimately becomes more popular will the government of the time not increase full duty on it to counter balance the lost revenue on petrol, thus making LPG uneconomical ? Regards, FM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aled_cky Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 yes i knew that Red Diesel is 'cherry' and is used in tractors, as we just refilled our tank today with it.. it is illegal to use Red Diesel in any car, £5000 fine i think it is if you are caught with it in your car Aled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Pudding Posted June 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 It's a £500 first fine if caught using red diesel in your car . Red diesel is known as gas oil . Not only farmers use red , Traisn run on red as do all plant machinery and also boats . As to the e-mail , it was not my idea , i just copyed an pasted it on here . As to those that don't like the idea ... Here's a little question for ya ... What are you going to do when fuel hits the predicted £1 + a litre ? I was involved in the first fuel dispute . "We" blocked the A1 close to where i live at rush hour . a 5mph rolling road block for 10 miles caused over 60 miles of tail backs . Proud yes . Felt let down by the rest of the country trusting what they heard on the news about , stopping Emergency services fuel getting though . So the question still stands , are you going to pay a £1+ a litre if it hits that level , or are you going to try and do something about it ? all the best yis yp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 So the question still stands , are you going to pay a £1+ a litre if it hits that level , or are you going to try and do something about it ? We are going to have to pay mate... as much as it galls me to say this. However it will be catastrophic for the current government at the next G. E if this happens because peple will vote with their feet. I suspect that the level of Government duty on petrol will be major weapon in the Conservatives next electoral campaign.. When my wife was working for the American Airforce a couple of years ago at RAF Fairford. ( Seconded from the MOD) she had dispensation to use the Airforce commisory including the gasoline pumps.. She used to fill her car up for 22p per litre.. and they were importing the bloody stuff!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 FM Like I said previously in this post, Im an engineer, not a politician. I have either been associated with or directly involved with the LPG industry all my working life. In the mid seventies I witnessed a change in goverment, which put the same duty on LPG as that for petrol and diesel. The industry was virtually wiped out overnight. Only a few gas companies kept the job ticking over. We converted all manner of things from sweepers to generators for far flung places. Fortunateley the rest of Europe was still interested in LPG and the development of technology continued. With the recent interest in global warming and air polution, everyone and their dog are trying to find ways for polution free transport, but its a hard battle. The alternatives are electric / battery; cheap, only because there is no duty, but the polution is only moved from the street to the power station, plus the batteries are expensive both to manufacture and dispose of, and they cause their own polution problems. Hydrogen, varoius ideas here, either burn it as now or in a fuel cell, bloody expensive. Hydrogen is quite cheap to make, but you need electricity. It is however bloody dangerous stuff for several reasons. It has to be filled as high pressure gas, but static can easily cause the slightest leak to ignite. I dont see the public wearing special flame and static proof suits to fill up, but the quest continues. Bio-diesel, this probably offers the most, as we can keep on growing the OSR, shoot the pigeons, eat them, etc. However rape oil is very different from mineral oil used to produce diesel. Special lubricants need to be added to rape oil to prevent premature wear to vital fuel injection components, these I believe are quite harmfull. So we are left with diluteing existing diesel with rape oil, fine, this will help to reduce our dependance on oil, but not replace it. At the moment bio-diesel has not really taken off because the dilution rate is too low to be real interest to small users. Bio-diesel is however equally polluting as standard diesel, or low sulpher diesel etc, the particulates are the problem. This can be overcome in some part by fitting catalytic converters, but they only work when really hot, and pose their own disposal problems. LPG Autogas. Readily available, cleaner than other fossil fuels, low emmisions, cheap. Its a by-product of oil refineing, and so its price is linked to oil. The pump price is assisted by lower duty than petrol or diesel to reflect its less polluting benefits and encourage its use. However if the government are to honour their pledge with regard to the Kyoto agreement, they will need to support Autogas, as, for the moment and foreseeable future, Autogas is the only viable alternative. Technology marches forward at pace, but I feel that we are decades away from any significant change. Sorry I could not reply yesterday, but I was attending an exhibition, helping to man a stand. Ill leave to your imagination what we were about! webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 YP You are right to protest, but the protest needs to be taken to London. Roll blocking the A1 or what ever, only causes disruption to people who are trying to do their best. It uses up more fuel, thats costing more if you can get, and looses public support. For gods sake, donot blockade the refineries as last time. I cant say too much on this forum, but it was a good job that the last blockade ended when it did. HMG were going to take serious measures to clear the blockades. The situation got far more serious than was reported. Because most of my companies fleet runs on gas, we were in a position to keep running when our competitors could not deliver. The gas companies were syphoning diesel from one tanker to another to keep us supplied with both cylinders for essential users and Autogas to deliver it. Despite well ment gestures from the protestors, vital distribution of vital products became seriously jeapordised, the whole system came close to melt down, the stress at the time was terrible. No wonder Im ill! Regards webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Webber, you obviously know your job but one flaw i can see in your arguement for not using vegetable oil. You rightly state that if anyone pours vegetable oil into their tank they still need a good amount of diesel fuel to maintain the additives required for lubrication. However the vegetable oil we are talking about is produced as a food product and were it to be produced on a large scale as a fuel replacement it wouldn't require rocket science for the producers to put in suitable additives. Just my observations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Ernya You are spot on, but the problem is the additives!, and the sooty particulates. If they can get them right the government will be begging us to shoot pigeons, just think what it could do for our balance of payments! From memory, only about 75% of diesel is burnt in the engine the rest goes up the exhaust pipe. An almost perfect burn can be obtained by mixing propane gas with the air intake. It is however difficult to control and the diesel engines are not generally designed to operate at the higher temperatures generated. I am sure that it will be got right, but not now. A number of hauliers have tried the current technology with very variable results. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTaylor2k4 Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 i got an email like this recntly like this, is anyone actually doing it? Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 PT They are mate and the oil companies are noticing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallyscott Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Raw plant oil can damage a pump due to it's high viscosity, but bio-diesel has the same viscosity as regular diesel as it meets the same european standards, and will not damage pumps or engines. It does not require lubricants and can be used as a 100% replacement for regular or in any mix. European rules will soon require all diesel fuel to contain a small percentage of bio-diesel. Other european countries already do this. Bio-diesel is not polluting in the same way as regular diesel and in particular does not add CO2 to the atmosphere as does LPG. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Mal Whilst I agree with most of your points, I think that you need to check your facts about Bio-diesel, pollution and LPG. Regards webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Whilst it may be difficult for some of us to imagine personally blockading Refineries and manning rolling roadblocks, I fully support those that did. It is obvious that the Labour Government have become arrogant and complacent, the recent Iraq War Inquirys and their reactions to them, bear this out. Why is this the only Country that I can find, where Diesel is more expensive than Petrol ? Its not the Oil Companies, its Government Tax. When this Government sees any forms of Civil Disobedience, they take serious notice. I regret that this may be the only way, to get any messages through to them. However, I agree that any protests or action should be taken to London. Right on Mr Bliar,s doorstep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Cranfield I agree with every word, and please dont think that I support Blair and Co. but the fact is that the last major protest caused far more deep rooted problems than were ever reported. The time became very stressful for me. The government were about to break the blockades with severe force, fortunateley the protest ended only hours before they would have acted. For maximum impact and media coverage take it to London. The reason that Diesel fuel is more expensive is due to a higher level of fuel duty, which is intended to reflect the level of pollution caused by the fuel. LPG is considered to be low pollution and hence a lower rate of duty. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 webber, I was under the impression when we were all being persuaded to buy diesel vehicles, that the fuel was less of an enviromental hazard, than petrol. What changed ? Duty on diesel was increased (over that on petrol), when the Government realised that more diesel vhicles were being sold, at the expense of petrol vehicles. Even those deaheads could work out the resultant loss of tax revenue, unless they did something. Your support of LPG is understandable, but I don,t think it will become the alternative fuel of choice. Dropping the word "Gas" might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Cranfield In the 80s Diesel was promoted as being less harmful to the enviroment, despite its thick black clouds of smoke, it was also cheaper than petrol. However as various governments have tried to improve their green credentials, they hit on the idea of the poluter pays. As Diesel has been proved to be more poluting than petrol and LPG, it now carries a higher level of duty. I dont think that LPG will ever replace the existing fuels, but it is a viable alternative, available now, is reasonably priced, and is less poluting than other fuels. Bio-diesel has a lot to offer, but still suffers from the sooty particulates; technology marches on. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squintshot Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 A number of points. Lpg duty is 'frozen' at present just like diesel was a few years back. Diesels may not have the same CO2 outputs but does contain more other poluttants, there are a new breed of diesels out there euro 4 which are cleaner than petrol and get a 3% discount for company car drivers. There is no shortage of oil or gas in this country or the world, the oil companies are sitting on many many undrilled fields in the north sea alone, they say at present it's uneccomical to develop these sites at present. What they mean is they wont be as profitable as there bigger easier fields. A few of these have been recently sold off too smaller companies for developing. The fact we still export huge amounts of oil and gas and plead shortages is bewildering. There is a diesel discovery rally car that runs an LPG conversion up here in Scotland. The government give you a cash incentive for converting your car to LPG easing the burden of the costly conversion. On running chip fat or any other non duty fuel do you not have to fit a meter so they know how much your putting in?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallyscott Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 I like LPG for its low level of toxic emissions, especially for city use, however it is a fossil fuel, it will disappear with the other fossil fuels. It emits slightly less carbon dioxide than petrol and diesel, but is not a match for bio-diesel which emits very little. We have a commitment to reduce CO2 emissions which bio-diesel can deliver in spades. What I don't like in the LPG scene is that the people who benefit most from the conversion (and who are getting it done) are those who drive the biggest, heaviest, most fuel consumptive vehicles. Having this conversion available actually encourages people to buy high consumption vehicles. I do see quite a bit of bad feeling towards the wilder group of gas guzzlers which hopefully will filter through to the consciousness of potential buyers. Malcolm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 In the four Jet garages in my part of Kent, they are displaying notices saying that the LPG pumps will be removed at the end of this month, due to lack of sales. I don't know if this is a national policy of Jet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 I'm currently looking at getting My Jeep converted to LPG. Having made some enquiries I have found that the £40M pounds allocated by the governemnt to the powershift grant scheme is almost used up. This means that the avaerage £700 grant will soon be withdrawn. The scheme was apparently set up to kick start the LPG market. Not all vehicle models are eligable for the scheme. Needless to say mine isn't on the list. :< I have also been informed that the government have promised to give three years notice of any intoduction of duty. How true this is I don't know. How many governments keep their promises? The latest figures show there are approx 100,000 LPG users in the UK. Compared to regular fuels this is a small fraction of a percent. You can see why the mainstream garages are either withdrawing the LPG pumps or are not bothering to install them. This is a shame as I think it deters people from converting for fear of not being able to fuel up. Look out for LPG at Vauxhall dealerships with forecourts as they are manufacturing dual fuel cars and tend to have LPG pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 Cranfield Ive not heard of any LPG pumps being removed. But it is a fact that some towns have over capacity, whilst others have none. Many garages jumped onto what they saw as a bandwagon, as did some supermarkets. The majority of the equipment is provided on a type of contract hire basis. Its likeley that the installations have not paid their way. The equipment will be re-located, and obviously the ecconomic viability of those remaining in the area will improve. The UK has the best Autogas availability in Europe. If memory serves me correctly, Jet is owned by Conoco, which is owned by Philips Petroleum, who bought out the small town chemist who discovered Butane and Propane by accident when a customer complained that half his can of gasoline has evaporated in no time. :blink: One of the main downfalls with Bio-diesel is the level of Nox, which is significantly higher than LPG. Nox is responsible for smog. CO2 emmissions is only one component of a complex situation. I am sure that Bio-diesel will get there, but it will be eventually. For now LPG is the cleanest readily available alternative fuel. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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