starlight32 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 I too have seen the effects of celebratory gunfire....... When working in Angola in the Nineties I witnessed their independence day. We had been warned of the dangers of entering the city of Luanda as the day drew to a close. I was staying in a staff house on a hillside bordering the city limits. I will admit it was a bit hairy that night and chose to sleep downstairs. Falling rounds had been hitting the roof and surrounding terrace of the house I was staying in. The following morning I spoke with the nearby UN garrison commander, who told me 'A total of 14 people had been killed in the city by celebratory gunfire'. That was not the end of it though- when we got back to our accomodation we found out a total 12 'noticable' projectiles had hit the house and terrace in the night-which included 3 from a 40mm cannon and an exploded RPG round......... So as the moral says- What goes up........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 I remember that school incident. It was a nasty bit of publicity for the sport, although if I remember correctly the kid wasn't seriously hurt? I don't think I'd want to be firing a .22 up, 40 grains is a little more than 17! When I think of how many birds I shot out of my grandads trees when I was a lad, it does make me wonder. It was only a .22 air rifle, but still could have hurt a bit if I'd have hit someone. I still think I'll stick with the old fasioned rule of shooting down, although this topic is digging up some interesting facts about how little harm a HMR is likely to cause when free falling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 It is drummed into you never to do it but no one has second thoughts about firing shotguns in the air, I'd hazard a guess that were you to fire BB's into the air the shot would land with a similar force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 It's important that it's understood this was theoretical and deals with a case of a bullet dropped from height. The consequences of shooting straight up would be similar but anything like a shallow angle, such as into a small tree from about 100yds would produce a very shallow angle and I would expect the HMR round, if it missed, to be potentially lethal up to and over a mile away. There have been some excellent examples of when shooting into trees wouldn't be dangerous, at the end of the day it's the bloke who pulls the trigger who's responsible for what happens to the bullet. As Mungler points out a judge would take a dim view regardless, if someone gets hurt as a result of doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwr Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 The .17HMR is a very light little round, in ballistic terms it has a very small sectional density, according to Chuck Hawkes (who knows a damn sight more than me!) it's the lowest on the market. This means it has a very low mass for it's size. Working out some rough figures, and I am assuming a lot of things here like the density of the air, the ballistic coefficient of the bullet (Hornady have not released figures) but the perceived wisdom is it's about .123 Now, playing around with a spreadsheet I made I calculated that the terminal velocity in normal conditions, for a v-max poly tip .17HMR round, seems to be about 46mph or about 67m/s. It would take about two and a half seconds of free-fall for this to hit the ground and that works out to be about 300ft or roughly 91m. Obviously this assumes a straight up shot, otherwise it gets sodding complicated At this velocity I calculate the energy to be about 0.17 ft/lb Still wouldn't do it though. Hi Pin I reckon you've been on the sloe gin where do you get 300 feet from?or have Imissed something? 67 meters per second is 150 mph not 46mph so what lb/ft does that work out at? more than .17 methinks the bullet velocity required for skin penetration is between 45 and 60 metres per second so although lighter than an ak47 fired on new year still fast enough to ruin your day! and while you're dusting that software down could you please work out the lb/ft of a no 6 shotgun pellet which apparently weighs 1.95 grains,sorry don't have bc Cheers Me old crocodile feeder and Mungler I dont think he's my brother, depends how much permission he has, I might consider adoption H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hi PinI reckon you've been on the sloe gin where do you get 300 feet from?or have Imissed something? 67 meters per second is 150 mph not 46mph so what lb/ft does that work out at? more than .17 methinks Sorry, just over 20m/s, I had mislabeled something It's not that straight forward the mechanics, well, it might be to someone who did it less than 16 years ago, not much call for it in IT Management it seems The figure of energy is correct as that was based on the feet per second calculation which was correct and while you're dusting that software down could you please work out the lb/ft of a no 6 shotgun pellet which apparently weighs 1.95 grains,sorry don't have bc Cheers Me old crocodile feeder In freefall? Assuming 11.34 g cm-3 (I know shot has antimony added @ 5% but freak knows how dense that is) Assuming a ballistic coefficient of .5 (for a sphere really, but screw working out what shape it is after firing) About 82fps from about 150m height (if dropped) seems to be terminal velocity. I worked the weight out to 1.99 grains but that might be US shot six (shrug) So thats (82*82)*1.99/450400 = 0.02ft/lb Ish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwr Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hi PinI reckon you've been on the sloe gin where do you get 300 feet from?or have Imissed something? 67 meters per second is 150 mph not 46mph so what lb/ft does that work out at? more than .17 methinks Sorry, just over 20m/s, I had mislabeled something It's not that straight forward the mechanics, well, it might be to someone who did it less than 16 years ago, not much call for it in IT Management it seems The figure of energy is correct as that was based on the feet per second calculation which was correct and while you're dusting that software down could you please work out the lb/ft of a no 6 shotgun pellet which apparently weighs 1.95 grains,sorry don't have bc Cheers Me old crocodile feeder In freefall? Assuming 11.34 g cm-3 (I know shot has antimony added @ 5% but freak knows how dense that is) Assuming a ballistic coefficient of .5 (for a sphere really, but screw working out what shape it is after firing) About 82fps from about 150m height (if dropped) seems to be terminal velocity. I worked the weight out to 1.99 grains but that might be US shot six (shrug) So thats (82*82)*1.99/450400 = 0.02ft/lb Ish Thanks for that Pin still surprises me about the hmr, guess they are big for there light weight where did you get the bc from for hmr I couldnt find it H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Found it on Chuck Hawkes site, he calculated it as opposed to knew it but I trust him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thanks for that Pin still surprises me about the hmr, guess they are big for there light weight where did you get the bc from for hmr I couldnt find it H most of it is made up of polymer tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Yep, speed is what gives the HMR it's power, it's such a quick round. Double the speed quadruple the power, double the weight of the bullet and you only double the power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 It is drummed into you never to do it but no one has second thoughts about firing shotguns in the air, I'd hazard a guess that were you to fire BB's into the air the shot would land with a similar force. According to my (pretty dodgy) maths, a AAA pellet weighs 12.15 grains. A BB is much lighter. The subject of firing rifles into the air always makes for a good topic on here, and I take quite an interest in it. Going by the figures I'd be happy to fire a HMR at near vertical, but that's only in theory. For some reason I've had it set in me never to attempt it, and that attitude isn't likely to change any time soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 If you think about the number of times you have had shot rain down on you at clay grounds, it wouldn't be allowed if it was dangerous The only way that's going to hurt is if you are looking up and get one in the mince pie, but then you'd be wearing safety specs I'd be happy that a shot from my HMR sent vertical wouldn't kill anyone when it landed, like you though mate I ain't going to test the theory out njc: 112fps for the AAA pellet so roughly 0.4ft/lb - still not a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbruno Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 here in Canada we have a lot more open space then you guy's got, and shooting crows even with 223 out of a tree is a common practice, however even in Canada one must be sure of his hunting area and beyond, unfortunatley it has happend a farm house or vehicle takes a round and on a very rare occasion someone has been injured or killed, the ones we realy have to watch up here and no offence are some of the american hunters that come up they like to shoot at anything and have on occasion shot farmers live stock and indanjerd animals and other hunters having said that i have met some yankee hunters who were very nice and respectful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Interesting.. Guy at work who's Sweedish tells me a mate of his paints "COW" in bright orange spray paint on the side of his cattle to stop German hunters mistaking them for moose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loopy bunny blaster Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 .223 into the air bet that lands quite a way away what about letting a 7mm mag off how far would one of those things travel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) I can't be ***** working it out but a .30 shell launched vertically assuming a 10mph wind (and that the wind stays the same direction all the way up which it won't) would land nearly 400m away from where it was fired. I'm surprised Lefty hasn't piped up, his field of expertise this Edited January 7, 2008 by pin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 right ,found the article in magazine i was looking for.. a.243 winchester 100 grain super x power point fired at 32 degrees will land about 2 and a half miles away 30 seconds after pulling triggerand will deliver 31 ft lbs. a 17hmr will land 1,924 yds away landing at 2.3 ft lbs. a 40 grain subsonic .22 will travel 1,880 yds away at 6.1 ft lbs 20 seconds later. hope this helps . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneEye Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 2.3 ft/lbs - as long as it didn't hit you in the eye there's nothing to fear from that. Still don't think I'll be shooting up mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunk Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Read an article in one of the mags a while back about shooting into the air and the possible results. The example given was of someone using .22lr to shoot crows or whatever. The bullet travelled 700yds and hit a bloke in the head who was on a picknick with his family. Killed him. Not worth the risks and totally iresponsible. If you need to knock stuff out of trees there are safer methods like air rifle and shotgun. The article went on to say that if fired straight up it would reach the end of its flight then fall to earth with the terminal velocity as anything else of similar weight. Similar to dropping a coin from a high building. When was the last time you heard of someone killed by a coin dropped from something like the eifel tower. The problem arises when the bullet is fired at any angle other than staight up. It will follow a balistic path with a dangerous amount of energy. I would think that nobody would be shooting straight up into trees, but at an angle, so therefore dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 In your case just make sure you're pointitng towards France it'll be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 .223 into the air bet that lands quite a way away what about letting a 7mm mag off how far would one of those things travel? i once whitnessed a 6.5mm grendle fired at a crow in a tree only then did the shooter ask i hope thers ne houses behind their crazy *** hole he was kiked strate off the farm and lost permission Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loopy bunny blaster Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 i think he deserved that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) Hi, Edited February 13, 2008 by Cranfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 WHat the hell has that got to do with the thread oggy? ZB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 don't worry he's posted the same post on about 10 other threads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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