SACS. What do they support in England?

[Dunkield]

....they might have a 100 + workers..all driving new 4x4's and think they are better than anybody else.

Welcome to planet Willow

[auto culto]

I,ve seen a close friend and his wife go through hell due to basc not representing them and not having the funding to do anything bar sit on the ropes and watch. At that point he was not a member of sacs but they still turned round and said don't worry about it we will sort it for you. Couple of days later a barrister contacted him saying that I am the person that's going to fight it for you. Now if they do this for non members it shows they are clearly interested in your well being. Not what 4x4 they get when the new reg plates come out. I sincerely hope basc member's never have to rely on there organisation to bail them out when the chips are down

[webber]

Verse 5 is very apt!

"5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks".

webber

[markbivvy]

it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks".

tin hat time.?:good:

[webber]

Dave G

 

Maybe this will answer some of your questions.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/settingthes...codesofpractice

 

webber

[Dave-G]

Cheers webber, good read there mate.

 

Lest anyone thinks otherwise, this is not a bash the police or BASC whilst bigging up SACS thread.

 

I do believe BASC is - and has been very good for shooters in this country. However, in this PC/anti age where so many people are unsupportive of our shooting to the point of doing something to cause us hindrance, I feel very exposed and unprotected.

 

I feel it prudent to have legal defence insurance for my shooting interests, and not just while out shooting. I’m also a taxi driver, an ageing one at that: What happens to my certificate if some drunken thug decides to fill me in because he feels he should get his taxi for free? Or I have an RTA with some bully who thinks it’s ok to drive like a lunatic and drops me saying it was his fault?

 

I think I’m correct in saying that anyone getting into an altercation risks loss, or suspension, of his ticket - depending on the whim of his issuing force chief constable or firearms dept staff? If I have to defend myself I’m in a lose/lose situation.

 

I would have thought BASC, with its proportionally massive funding would have mandatory legal support for its members. It’s a shame that I must now seek legal protection elsewhere. My dilemma is that there seems no BASC membership option that is cheaper without their public liability cover now that I have applied to join up with SACS.

[winchester]

Sencible thing to join i think

[auto culto]

Verse 5 is very apt!

"5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks".

webber

 

 

I just hope you never have to rely on basc for legal costs as that would make it twice you've been burnt. You may as well put your faith in God. Cant see any basc spokesman here defending their corner can you . But anyway I shall say no more on this. This saying pretty much sums it up," You can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink"

[Pinkfooty]

I have been watching this thread for a few days now and becoming increasingly amused by the factoids, half truths and total misconceptions being bandied around in it.

 

Firstly, to get SACS out of the way, can I suggest that anyone seriously thinking of donating their hard-earned cash to this organisation asks Ian Clark a few pointed questions. You will recall that Ian said that SACS was formed because, prior to its formation, BASC in Scotland was not the most efficient organisation. That is about the only thing about which I agree with Ian. So ask him these questions:

 

1. In the years when BASC was inefficient in Scotland, what was the name of the head honcho in the BASC Scottish Office?

 

2. What was the name of the ex-BASC employee who started SACS and became its first head honcho???

 

You didn't know that, did you?

 

Then, turning to this question of "legal expenses" insurance. Why the hell would anyone want to pay (via SACS or any other organisation) for insurance to pay legal expenses to go to Court to fight unnecessary legal cases that BASC's Firearms Team successfully deal with, day in and day out, without going near a Court? Surely it is far better to deal with these matters out-of-court, using the huge expert advice within BASC, and save precious financial resources for fighting an occasional appeal in the very few cases where common sense might not prevail. (After all, most of the solicitors, advocates and barristers working in this field will call upon BASC for expertise and expert witnesses anyway!). And the recent experience has been that, increasingly, when BASC does go to appeal, the expenses are awarded against the police.

 

Thirdly, the bit that always gives me the biggest laugh whenever I read it on PW (and it has been stated with monotonous regularity) - where the **** does this crazy idea come from that BASC staff drive around in posh cars, speak with posh accents and look down on common folk like you and me?

 

BASC staff are ordinary people, employed for their experience and expertise, who work for far lower wages than they would get for similar jobs in the private sector. The few that do get 4x4 vehicles get them because they need them to do their jobs, which often entail working very long hours "off road" and carting materials the length and breadth of the country. I think that the policy is that those vehicles are "cascaded" down from the heavy users to lighter users (who still need 4x4 capability) and eventually traded-in when they reach 150,000 miles or 7 years. Certainly very few new ones in the small fleet.

 

As some PW members will know, it is not unknown for me to be critical of BASC from time to time. But I do try to base my criticism on fact and not on unadulterated mythology. At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card. Not only for the insurance (which only costs about £12 of the subscription), not only for the firearms expertise but - above all else - because to shoot at all, we need something to shoot with, somewhere to shoot and quarry to shoot at. Without BASC we would very quickly have none of those things.

 

Hope this helps lay a few misconceptions to rest.

 

Eric Begbie

Edited October 24, 2008 by Pinkfooty

[becassier]

I see you have not changed in all these years Eric. Still the prophet for BASC in Scotland.

 

Are you still a BASC Council member?

 

It must be difficult swimming against the tide, Eric.

 

It's good to see that so many here, like Daniel, can see the handwriting on the wall!

 

 

Becassier

[Pinkfooty]

Are you still a BASC Council member?

 

No - gave that up earlier this year. Still on their Wildfowling Liaison Committee.

[auto culto]

Then, turning to this question of "legal expenses" insurance. Why the hell would anyone want to pay (via SACS or any other organisation) for insurance to pay legal expenses to go to Court to fight unnecessary legal cases that BASC's Firearms Team successfully deal with, day in and day out, without going near a Court? Surely it is far better to deal with these matters out-of-court, using the huge expert advice within BASC, and save precious financial resources for fighting an occasional appeal in the very few cases where common sense might not prevail. (After all, most of the solicitors, advocates and barristers working in this field will call upon BASC for expertise and expert witnesses anyway!). And the recent experience has been that, increasingly, when BASC does go to appeal, the expenses are awarded against the police.

 

Eric Begbie

 

 

Totally agree with you that its far better to sort the problem before it goes to court. But what happens if you get arrested and it does need to go to court ?

 

1) Will basc fund every case for EVERY MEMBER regardless of the accusations or will they vet these cases first and only fund the one's that are a 100% favorite to win ?

2) Will basc supply you a solicitor regardless of the accusations if you are arrested ?

 

As you seem to be the only person here that can represent basc (no others have steped forward) perhaps you could answer these 2 simple questions for us.

Edited October 24, 2008 by auto culto

[Piebob]

1. In the years when BASC was inefficient in Scotland, what was the name of the head honcho in the BASC Scottish Office?

 

2. What was the name of the ex-BASC employee who started SACS and became its first head honcho???

 

You didn't know that, did you?

 

Yes, I did. And it's part of the reason I renewed with BASC rather than go elsewhere. But I did also join SGA as a supporter member and likely will review again next year when renewal time comes around.

[Bazooka Joe]

At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card.

 

If I remember right you have come out with this before PinkFooty, what brings you to this conclusion?

 

You have to be a member of BASC before you get a gun?

 

BJ.

[becassier]

Quote "At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card"

 

Eric, what an awful, purile and condescending thing to say.

 

Is it any wonder BASC are loosing members if that is the opinion of their committee members?

 

1930s Germany had opinons like that Eric, National Socialist Card Carrying Members. They were the special people. I expect you have heard about them.

 

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

 

 

Who will speak up for you, Eric?

 

Becassier

Edited October 24, 2008 by becassier

[markbivvy]

At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card.

this is how the basc would like things to be.

and could be one reason they dont upset the police and governments of the day.

seen some scary stuff posted by basc staff , but this is the worste.

[auto culto]

At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card.

 

If I remember right you have come out with this before PinkFooty, what brings you to this conclusion?

 

You have to be a member of BASC before you get a gun?

 

BJ.

 

 

Quote "At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card"

 

Eric, what an awful, purile and condescending thing to say.

 

Is it any wonder BASC are loosing members if that is the opinion of their committee members?

 

1930s Germany had opinons like that Eric, National Socialist Card Carrying Members. They were the special people. I expect you have heard about them.

 

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

 

 

Who will speak up for you, Eric?

 

Becassier

 

 

At the end of the day no-one deserves to carry a gun in UK today unless they also carry a BASC membership card.

this is how the basc would like things to be.

and could be one reason they dont upset the police and governments of the day.

seen some scary stuff posted by basc staff , but this is the worste.

 

 

Now then calm down lads. I can see how it was intended to be read and though it was very poorly written. I think the point pinkflaps is trying to make is that without basc the shooting sports in "England" would be a lot worse of than it is today and by carrying your basc card you are forming a union to fight for the sport. That is unless pinkflaps is truly a Nazi dictator in disguise. I,m not going to knock basc about all the good work they have done in the past and what they will do in the future. After all basc are the org that brought about the dsc1, although its not compulsory to do the course you ain't going to get far without it. Its almost mandatory to have one now if you want to go stalking. They are also working to try and bring about the firearms safety course, which again is not compulsory but I will hazard a guess and say that in a few years time you wont be able to get a fac unless you have one. So remember, all told basc has done a great deal of work to enhance shooting sports.

[Dunkield]

After all basc are the org that brought about the dsc1,

Did they?

[David BASC]

Please get facts straight when posting. Eric is NOT a member of BASC Staff - he is a member of BASC and a passionate supporter of BASC I grant you, just as Mark is a passionate supporter of SACS

[markbivvy]

Please get facts straight when posting. Eric is NOT a member of BASC Staff - he is a member of BASC and a passionate supporter of BASC I grant you, just as Mark is a passionate supporter of SACS

 

Nice to see you back david :yp: , sorry about the mix up young man.

[David BASC]

Hi Mark,

 

No harm no foul!

 

D

[markbivvy]

Hi Mark,

 

No harm no foul!

 

D

thanks David.

[MC]

I think as well that he deserves some respect as do you all. His user name is pinkfooty.

 

I believe that what he should have said is no one should carry a gun in the UK without being a member of a reputable shooting organisation. After all my FAC states that the 7.62 and .22 rifles are to be used on ranges approved for that class of firearm and where suitable financial arrangements have been made to meet any injury or damage claim.

 

This is not a problem to me as I am a member of BASC, NRA, NSRA, CPSA so that pretty much covers all eventualaties.

 

All this SACS is better than BASC is getting a bit like the schoolyard "My dad is bigger than your dad"

[David BASC]

MC / All,

 

I have to agree,

 

Obviously I want as many shooters as possible to support BASC – and we have our supporters – many of them very passionate - BUT there are other organisations out there offering different deals for less cost. This is a free market.

 

OK I think the BASC offering is the best over all – but I guess I would say that wouldn’t I?

 

Do we get it right every time? Is our customer service always 100% ? Nope. Sorry if you think we let you down or are not up to the mark, we do our best, but at the end of the day its your money and you have the absolute right to spend it with the organisation that you think will best serve you and shooting.

 

David :yp:

[Dave-G]

......

Then, turning to this question of "legal expenses" insurance. Why the hell would anyone want to pay (via SACS or any other organisation) for insurance to pay legal expenses to go to Court to fight unnecessary legal cases that BASC's Firearms Team successfully deal with, day in and day out, without going near a Court? Surely it is far better to deal with these matters out-of-court, using the huge expert advice within BASC, and save precious financial resources for fighting an occasional appeal in the very few cases where common sense might not prevail. (After all, most of the solicitors, advocates and barristers working in this field will call upon BASC for expertise and expert witnesses anyway!). And the recent experience has been that, increasingly, when BASC does go to appeal, the expenses are awarded against the police........

 

Eric Begbie

 

Thank you Eric, was hoping to hear from someone at or connected with BASC eventually.

 

I'd like to introduce an analogy regarding insurance before I go further if I may. Years ago Fully comprehensive motor insurance covered the policyholder to drive other peoples cars on a Third party only risk. At that time it was sometimes called "all risks" and policy holders with that cover knew about it. In more recent times insurers have trimmed the benefits, some calling that aspect an extension, and some have now dropped all extensions when quoting for comparison purposes.

 

See here for some of the related press going about at the time:

Clicky

Another clicky

 

Oldie's like me still assumed we were covered but some of us learned the hard way... too late. I have been very lucky as it turns out. The point I'm concerned about is how insurers changed things around without making the change clear - to the point that if it ain't on the document then it definitely ain't there. Clearly BASC cannot comment on two of the instances mention earlier in this thread. But untill we know more we can't help but wonder why support has not been given in court.

 

It is VERY comforting that BASC can approach and tactfully negotiate with the police on shooters behalf, but just sometimes they may come across a bobby that simply isn'nt up for changing his stance. So it goes all the way, maybe or maybe not as a test case. We need to know that if it hits the fan BASC will be there for us - rather than might be there for us. Unless it says it on the box we have to assume it is not there.

 

SACS has "Legal Cover" on their box, but the box appears to be in Scotland and Ireland.

 

The point of my thread is to find a shooting organisation that says on its box that it supplies legal cover for shooting related court appearances EDIT: where I live, in England. I sent off my enrolment details a week ago and an Email this morning, and have yet to get anything back.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Dave-G