auto culto Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Very well said. But no one here is has said that basc are doing anything but good work. The only gripe is the insurance problem and that current basc members dont have a clue how well they are not covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto culto Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 secondly there is an apparent growing need for legal expenses cover - not across all members by any means but by some. In a situation like this it is often better to introduce such as a paid for option. I do know there are two types of legal cover available – before the event – where you take it our ‘just in case’ as it were, and after the event, where you take out the policy after you have been nicked. I will look into this also. Very best wishes to all David This is more like it If basc can implement this I think you will be very surprised how many ex-members you gain back and how popular it will prove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxgun Tom Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) Pinkfooty says "can you really imagine an agency in England or Wales paying any attention to SACS??" Can you then give me a good reason why a Nationalist Government in Scotland should pay heed to two devolved organisations run from south of the border?? (BASC and the Countryside Alliance) At least we appear to be doing what our brothers in rural sports in the south want and ask for While as a BASC member I was asked to attend police headquarters in Glasgow re: my Shotgun Certifcate a senior Basc official also attended at my request! While the interview was being carried out and I answered all the relevant questions put to me, the BASC official sat in the corner rolling cigarettes, not once did he interject or ask the police why or did they have any concerns!! I absolved myself at the interview and everything ended amicably I paid a membership to BASC and a highly paid official supposedly looking after my interests was only concerned about his next nicotine fix!! he did nothing to facilitate my continued shooting career, I was lucky in the fact I knew how to conduct myself and had a knowledge of Firearms legislation, It was then I decided my membership money was better spent elsewhere, A few years later a similar situation arose and I asked SACs to attend,! Ian Clark met me at the police station with him was Mr Tom Cruickshank, SACs lawyer and an expert in firearms legislation who was attending on behalf of another SACs member Mr Cruickshank allayed any fears I had, Ian came into the interview room, constantly gave advice and was able to inform me and the officer involved what current legislation, allowed me to carry on shooting, He also made it very clear to all involved that as a SACs member any adverse decision taken against me would be challenged in the courts!! As many of you know I now work as a volounteer for the organisation now!! simply, because you get back what you put in and everyone gets the same service!! Another reason why I left BASC!! was they're callous refusal to offer any practical help to a 15 year old schoolboy at the time of a dreadful shooting accident. A number of websites allowed the Zander appeal Alexander Kerr) to be posted in their forums and forum members donated cash and the offer of day's out, some Lurcher enthusiasts even offered Zander a pup, Country magazines, advertised the appeal in their letter pages so that more people, were aware of what was going on, The National Coursing Club's Di Brodie sent free passes to the Waterloo Cup. Because Zander, is involved in promoting Lurcher and Terrier work as a member of the Scottish Working Dog Association a large number of UK Lurcher and Terrier men supported the appeal from the outset. What also makes Basc's attitude so appalling is that they're supposed to be the voice of shooting and encouraging the next generation of young shooters to take up the sport, what is also ironic is that Zander despite is injuries and new disability has applied for his shotgun certificate and the largest single donation to the appeal came from, "The England Olympic Skeet Team", the true voice of shooting! In my humble opinion BASC are a shower of heartless uncaring B@stards, Who will never see another penny or any future support from me and the vast majority of my friends, who will not be re-newing their memberships over this issue Letter sent to BASC Dear Sir's On new years day 2004 a young friend of mine Alexander Kerr (Zander) aged 15 was injured by a ricochet from a shotgun !!! This unfortunate incident happened while he and experienced Gun's were out taking part in legitimate pest control!!!!!!! Zander was rushed to hospital where he underwent a number of operation's to remove pellet's. Unfortunately, another operation is required and Zander is set to lose the sight in his right eye!!. I intend to be present at the" Waterloo Cup" and have asked the youngster to join me. Is there any way that the National Coursing Club can make his visit special And can I ask BASC and the SCA ,as well as SAC's, If there is any thing they could do to help aid the boy's recovery ??, This young man has shown tremendous courage and when I visited him today, his only concern was for the the chap who fired the shot, and how "he was worried at what he was going through". It was a very humbling experience, to see a young lad going through so much and yet his first thought is for others. I hope you all might be able to help this youngster while he goes through a difficult time personally Regards Tom Chalmers ________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________----- BASC's reply To Letter Tom, Thanks for this - not a very happy New Year for all concerned. Unfortunately I do not know whether any of the parties involved were members of BASC or whether insurance claims will be made against our insurance policy. Nor do I know whether there is any police action being taken. Due to these considerations it would not be appropriate, at this stage, for BASC to offer any more than our best wishes for a speedy recovery. All the best, Colin Edited October 25, 2008 by Foxgun Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becassier Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) Eric When will it dawn on you that your sermon is falling on deaf ears. We do not need to be BASC members to promote country sports, including shooting. All the organisations are doing that and much more besides. Ian Clark MRICS, is doing a very good job on behalf of SACS in many areas, including shooting sports. Remember,BASC only promotes shooting sports and conservation - as is their remit. That, in today's climate, is a very narrow remit. Yet they charge their members three times what the other organisations do for that "limited" service. Sure, continue to sing their praises Eric, if that's what turns you on. But the only person you are deluding here is yourself. You sure as heck are not fooling the rest of us. We all voted with our feet some time. But the best part of this is, Eric and others, none of us are any worse for having voted with our feet! Becassier Edited October 25, 2008 by becassier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Eric When will it dawn on you that your sermon is falling on deaf ears. We do not need to be BASC members to promote country sports, including shooting. All the organisations are doing that and much more besides. Ian Clark MRICS, is doing a very good job on behalf of SACS in many areas, including shooting sports. Remember,BASC only promotes shooting sports and conservation - as their remit. That, in todays climate is a very narrow remit. Yet they charge their members three times what the other organisations do for that "limited" service. Sure, continue to sing their praises Eric, if that's what turns you on. But the only person you are deluding here is yourself. You sure as heck are not fooling the rest of us. We all voted with our feet some time. But the best part of this is, Eric and others, none of us are any worse for having voted with our feet! Becassier Well said,i believe that BASC are losing so many members that the top honchos will begin to get worried about the jobs and we will soon see them change the polices to try to stem the loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becassier Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Quote "In the negotiations with the government agencies the only organisation that has any real clout and has the interests of shooters at the front of its agenda is BASC (can you really imagine an agency in England or Wales paying any attention to SACS?? You're having a joke, right?). " Why not? They listen to SACS in NI and not to BASC! Assume nothing and rule nothing out. Becassier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 (edited) David, whilst a paid for legal option makes a few welcome steps in the right direction, I'm wondering who feels they would never benefit from legal cover as an integral part of their subscription? That we all pay a nominal sum from which any of us can draw support if the unfortunate happens to them. Would the £1 or so per member not be seen as a major benefiit of BASC membership which would probably draw more members and so help it's funding? A complete umbrella is surely worth so much more than one with a segment missing. Edited October 26, 2008 by Dave-G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I think as do many BASC members FULL cover means just that . If BASC concentrated on LOOKING AFTER ITS grass root members instead of chaseing POLITICAL ackalades in westminster and introducing Costly corses that are then adopted as a minimum standard BASC WOULD BE A BETTER orginisation. As for the insurance ist it an after thought a little too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Look at the personal axe grinding that has gone on in this thread. You have got four different stories from four different people as to why they left the BASC culminating in someone leaving because a youngster who got injured in a shooting incident (who was or was not a member of BASC?) and who wasn't looked after by the BASC. It seems that we each want a very large national (if not international) organisation with tens of thousands of members to be catering for our individual needs, and that just ain't gonna happen. If the smaller splinter groups fill that gap then fair enough. Now I am going to write to BASC and ask for a BASC car sticker in "blue" because I consider green to be an unlucky colour and not to my personal liking. Obviously if they don't meet my request I will no doubt receive an offer of a blue car sticker from some exBasc spin off group and will be on here giving BASC a good dig and extolling the virtues of the spin off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 As i say I will look into the insurance issue to see what options are out there. It could well bee that there is an increasing demand for this cover as we evolve into am ore litigious ‘blame’ culture – god help us! The retention of members is very important obviously, and it is my job to keep the retention rate as high as possible, last year it increased by about 1%, after being steady for three or four years, a true reflection I think of the level of service we do offer and the overall satisfaction of most of our members. Having said that there are occasions, as posted here, where BASC's response is not what the member expected, I am the first to admit that this can happen and I am sorry if we upset anyone or make them feel we have let them down. We always try not to do either. Not sure who in BASC Scotland smokes roll ups, can you name them please? Or at least give an idea of hole long ago this was. PM me if you don’t feel comfortable naming them on an open forum of course. Hmm, police et al not listening to BASC in NI? I think you are making things up I am afraid , indeed I know you are, but I am not going to get into an argument on this issue, the fact s speak for themselves. Sound like a disgruntled ex committee member to me! If you really want a list of all the positive things that BASC has done and can prove it has done in NI with the police, government departments etc, you know Rogers (the BASC Director in NI) contact details don’t you so why don’t you give him a call, I am sure he would love to catch up with you. In the case of the young man who got the eye injury, perhaps better advice would have been to see a lawyer and sue the guy that took the shot, and of course if the lad was a BASC member he would have had a payout from the personal accident policy. We do not run a benevolent fund for injured young people, perhaps we should, we run one for gamekeepers who have fallen on hard times for example. Any organization will always loose members, we do SACS do, CA do, CPSA do. Some leave because they stop shooting, some leave to join a cheaper option, some leave and join nothing (!) and a few, a very few from all organizations will leave because they are truly unhappy about something that the organization has done or not done – vote with their feet as has been said already on this thread. And why not! If you are not happy with the service and you tell us and we do not fix it to your satisfaction then ……. None of us in any of the organizations management teams should be arrogant, naive or complacent about our members demands and needs. Thank you all for the feedback, it is very useful to me to be told when me have made an error in your eyes so I can try my best to make sure this does not happen again. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Letter sent to BASCDear Sir's On new years day 2004 a young friend of mine Alexander Kerr (Zander) aged 15 was injured by a ricochet from a shotgun !!! This unfortunate incident happened while he and experienced Gun's were out taking part in legitimate pest control!!!!!!! Zander was rushed to hospital where he underwent a number of operation's to remove pellet's. Unfortunately, another operation is required and Zander is set to lose the sight in his right eye!!. I intend to be present at the" Waterloo Cup" and have asked the youngster to join me. Is there any way that the National Coursing Club can make his visit special And can I ask BASC and the SCA ,as well as SAC's, If there is any thing they could do to help aid the boy's recovery ??, This young man has shown tremendous courage and when I visited him today, his only concern was for the the chap who fired the shot, and how "he was worried at what he was going through". It was a very humbling experience, to see a young lad going through so much and yet his first thought is for others. I hope you all might be able to help this youngster while he goes through a difficult time personally Regards Tom Chalmers ________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________----- BASC's reply To Letter Tom, Thanks for this - not a very happy New Year for all concerned. Unfortunately I do not know whether any of the parties involved were members of BASC or whether insurance claims will be made against our insurance policy. Nor do I know whether there is any police action being taken. Due to these considerations it would not be appropriate, at this stage, for BASC to offer any more than our best wishes for a speedy recovery. All the best, Colin I do not see how BASC should or could have helped if he (or they) are not members. You might as well have contacted any of the other organisations, but if you are not a member of them, why should they help you? If I crash my car, and I am not insured I do not start sending letters after the event to try and get covered/payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 This seems very strange, I`m sure if any organisation I belonged to gave out free assistance to people who were not members, then I would be jacking them in pronto. As for Foxtom`s brushes(no pun intended) with the law, he must be unlucky for it to happen twice ! Now back to how organizations deal with whether a person will receive help, as a trade unionist I have been involved with similar scenarios, one party saying one thing and another saying the opposite. By investigating and looking at the facts, one can then say whether a person has an "arguable defence" if that person does not, then they are on there own, it is that simple, I DO NOT know if the BASC use a similar system, however I would think it to be not a million miles from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Henry, Yes very similar indeed, any such case can only be reviewed by our lawyer et al on the evidence presented at the time. However, that does not mean that if new evidence comes to light the case cannot be reviewed. Indeed the appeals procedure within the firearms act gives this degree of latitude as far as I can see. BUT that does not mean our system is perfect! One of the key issues here is exactly what Winchester said- we (BASC) have not made it clear to him what is and is not covered...this I am working on, although I am supposed to be taking a week of to spend half term with the kids! I will make some calls tomorrow to our insurance brokers to assess what is available on the market- it may take them a while to get quotes it, beat up underwriters etc though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Surely at the membership fees you charge this cover should be included Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Henry, Yes very similar indeed, any such case can only be reviewed by our lawyer et al on the evidence presented at the time. However, that does not mean that if new evidence comes to light the case cannot be reviewed........ Yes that`s the same as us, thanks for clearing that up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxgun Tom Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 (edited) The issue of helping a young lad had nothing to do with wether he was a member or not!! all it had to with was!! a national organisation advertising itself "As the voice of shooting" showing it had a human side and a degree of compassion by supporting a shooting mad youngster in his recovery! If the lad thought he was being supported by an organisation, in his darkest hours he may well have joined along with many of his associates, at the end of the day Basc were embarrassed into helping the lad because it put them in a bad light with the shooting community, they eventually gave him minimal clay coaching lessons at a gamefair, because he lost is master eye, The superficial cost of that !! I've probably dropped and lost running for a bus!! Tom Ps: BASC were the only organisation that refused to help! SACs launched an appeal and auction for the lad despite him not being a member The Scottish Countrysid Alliance also helped!! It did a terrific amount of good for the lads confidence and recovery knowing that shooting members of both these organisations were giving him moral and tangible support, it meant he had no time to feel sorry for himself and made him more determined to carry on with rural pursuits, especially shooting If SACs and the SCA could do this why could'nt BASC?? Pps The guy who shot Zander was insured and the boy got a payment but what financial renumeration do you think is equal to a 15 year old boy losing an eye??? As for myself, two brush'es with the law in 42 years, been shooting since the age of 9 :look: I'm now 51 and still no criminal record is quite good in my opinion Tom Edited October 26, 2008 by Foxgun Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 I fully understand what you say – and I understand thet you and others wll feel that the BASC response was not what it should have been.But my point back to you is this – where do you draw the line? I can think of at least 4 incidents in the past 24 months where a person aged under 18 has been seriously injured while shooting, and at least one where the young person died. Do we run fundraisers for everyone who is injured? Will SACS et al coffers run to this? No of course not, silly queston, but perhpase you see my point? Now all the case I know of are one where insurance companies have been involved and payments made- as in your case. But at least half of the shooters out there have no insurance indeed some ‘proudly’ boast they are so safe then need no shooting insurance- so it stands to reason that there are several shooting accidents each year involving un insured shooters and young people, what about them? The lad lost an eye and nothing will make up for that – at least the other guy involved was insured so the lad got some compensation, but as you say all the money and good wishes in the world, whether they came from an insurance payout of a fundraiser will never make up for the loss of an eye. There my be a case for a benevolent fund set up by ALL the organisations to help people / kids who are injured in shooting by non insured shooters, maybe this is somthing for the Brish Shooting Sports Council to take up rather than putting the onus on on or a few organisations at a time. But why should they ?- is it not simply the case that this sorry event shows how even the 'safest' shooter can casue an incident that changes lives, of how easy it is for something to go wrong, and how important it is for all to carry insurance. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Look at the personal axe grinding that has gone on in this thread. You have got four different stories from four different people as to why they left the BASC culminating in someone leaving because a youngster who got injured in a shooting incident (who was or was not a member of BASC?) and who wasn't looked after by the BASC. It seems that we each want a very large national (if not international) organisation with tens of thousands of members to be catering for our individual needs, and that just ain't gonna happen. If the smaller splinter groups fill that gap then fair enough. Now I am going to write to BASC and ask for a BASC car sticker in "blue" because I consider green to be an unlucky colour and not to my personal liking. Obviously if they don't meet my request I will no doubt receive an offer of a blue car sticker from some exBasc spin off group and will be on here giving BASC a good dig and extolling the virtues of the spin off. You make a good point Mungler, but the large volume of the membership is surely strong enough to carry the key to open up retained legal defence of any members licence if it arises. The weight each member carries is negligible. Although individual cases have been quoted, I think they have been used as examples of where an all member cover would have worked for any of us. The irony I see here is that in some instances a smaller organisation that caters for more than shooting affairs was willing to defend the ticket holder - and the precedent that COULD be set. The young boy's tragic situation is truly difficult in that he was not a member of BASC. Does anyone know if he was a member of any country pursuit organisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 These recent coments have put me off joining SACS. They are very much along the lines of new Labour! Spending all the cash to make themselves look good, all our gold was sold at the lowest price and now we are stuck, in the problems we are in! Why now should I get inssurance? :look: If I have a problem I will just go calling on SACS in the future, and even if I am not a member they will sort me out But a couple of things might have happend 1 - All the money has gone 2 - current members will get **** off with this type of thing happening and stop it. Off course I WILL get insurance, just because thats who I am, but who I go with is back open for debat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 8 pages to discuss which association to join Surely you make your choice based on which one suits your needs most, and you pays your money - does it need to be any more complicated than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxgun Tom Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 (edited) You are now just taking the ****!! where do you get the new labour **** from and wasting members money?? There is absolutely no debate about joinining SACs you either do or don't?? I and a large majority of my fellow countrymen booted new labour out of power in Scotland :look: did south of the border do the same?? SACs does not favour one polital party over the other it as to take into consideration all political views!! its irrelevant who its individual members support politically and its for their conscience alone If you think a tory administration will ever get a ruling majority in Scotland your living in cloud cuckoo land, and labour are has much frowned upon as the Tories, the Liberals also have virtullay no chance either Obviously you have'nt a clue about Scots/Scotland or its political/social, situation or even its history Whats annoying a certain group of people is giving a better deal to everyone in the UK involved in rural pursuits and not just the guns,I spend a great deal of my time travelling the UK especially England! promoting SACs, I love the country of England its people and its different landscapes I also appriciate the many common bonds we share and will continue too have in the future. Why should'nt we be able to share the benefits I enjoy with others domiciled in these British Isles?? Tom These recent coments have put me off joining SACS. They are very much along the lines of new Labour! Spending all the cash to make themselves look good, all our gold was sold at the lowest price and now we are stuck, in the problems we are in! Why now should I get inssurance? If I have a problem I will just go calling on SACS in the future, and even if I am not a member they will sort me out But a couple of things might have happend 1 - All the money has gone 2 - current members will get **** off with this type of thing happening and stop it. Off course I WILL get insurance, just because thats who I am, but who I go with is back open for debat. Edited October 26, 2008 by Foxgun Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 These recent coments have put me off joining SACS. They are very much along the lines of new Labour! Spending all the cash to make themselves look good, all our gold was sold at the lowest price and now we are stuck, in the problems we are in! Why now should I get inssurance? :look: If I have a problem I will just go calling on SACS in the future, and even if I am not a member they will sort me out But a couple of things might have happend 1 - All the money has gone 2 - current members will get **** off with this type of thing happening and stop it. Off course I WILL get insurance, just because thats who I am, but who I go with is back open for debat. V8landy The money comes from the insurance that they offer not from SACS itself, so how can SACS spend all there money on this. SACS is a growing organisation and it has great potential to go better than BASC if BASC keeps things as the way they are. SACS will look after you and your chosen pursuit, SACS will fight for you straight the way, not wait for a committee to decide what to do. I think its a very caring organisation to help somebody that wasnt a member to pay out of there own pocket instead of insurance. Yet BASC has probably got millions in the bank and cant help out a 15 yr old lad, while other smaller organisations did help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 The debate is my own, I was not refering to an open debate. The choice is mine, an will be mine alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxgun Tom Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 DustyFox say's " think its a very caring organisation to help somebody that wasnt a member to pay out of there own pocket instead of insurance. Yet BASC has probably got millions in the bank and cant help out a 15 yr old lad, while other smaller organisations did help out. What SACs donated to the "ZANDER APPEAL" was its Officers and members own time and personal commitment, not any of SACs funds. Members of this organisation and one other (SCA) made the effort The lad benefitted from members of other forums and most significatlly the many retailers and traders at gamefairs I personally took the kid too! The whole exercise took up a lot of my own time over a full year I don't need a pat on the back. My reward and other members was this youngster instead of feeling sorry for himself and maybe going back on the streets to a negative way of life, deceided with a good support structure of people he never met to carry on shooting, get the relative certificates, found full-time employment and is now a well adjusted member of society, All this without the support or help of "The Voice of Shooting" (BASC) Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 DustyFox say's " think its a very caring organisation to help somebody that wasnt a member to pay out of there own pocket instead of insurance. Yet BASC has probably got millions in the bank and cant help out a 15 yr old lad, while other smaller organisations did help out. What SACs donated to the "ZANDER APPEAL" was its Officers and members own time and personal commitment, not any of SACs funds. Members of this organisation and one other (SCA) made the effort Sorry I was talking about another member on here Called Winchester and bought that up instead . Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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